Kallis vs Sobers, Donald vs Steyn, Trott vs Pollock

[Beleg]

At Kallis' highest bowling rating, he was ranked 7th with the ball and 10th with the bat.
Though that doesn't necessarily mean 7th was the highest bowling rank he achieved.

Edit : Highest bowling rank was 6th, at which time he was 5th with the bat.

pretty damned impressive, and given the era he played in, up there, if not better, than sobers' achievement.

 

[Howe_zat]

The era he plays in helps Kallis there, rather than hinders him. I doubt he would have been in the top 10 if he had played 20 years previously, for example.

(assuming you are referring to his bowling ranking)

 

[Burgey]

pretty damned impressive, and given the era he played in, up there, if not better, than sobers' achievement.

Why?

 

[Quaggas]

The era he plays in helps Kallis there, rather than hinders him. I doubt he would have been in the top 10 if he had played 20 years previously, for example.

(assuming you are referring to his bowling ranking)

Or, for bowling: (Kallis peak rating) > (Sobers peak rating), but (Sobers peak ranking) > (Kallis peak ranking), ergo (bowling in Kallis era) > (bowling in Sobers era). Kallis hindered better competition

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

The era he plays in helps Kallis there, rather than hinders him. I doubt he would have been in the top 10 if he had played 20 years previously, for example.

(assuming you are referring to his bowling ranking)

Helps with his bowling ranking, hinders his bowling stats.

Kallis averages 57 with the bat, he's answered his critics by scoring double hundreds and he averages 32 with the ball. That sort of achievement can't be underestimated. Rankings are an odd way to look at this as your ranking depends on the abilities of your peers as well as your own.

 

[Howe_zat]

Well, yes. I wasn't knocking Kallis at all, just contesting beleg's point.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

As a bowler Kallis had to compete with the likes of Donald, McGrath, Pollock, Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose, Walsh, etc.

Who did Sobers compete with? And would anyone have even cared for Sobers bowling had he played in the 90's alongside the above mentioned great bowlers?

 

[Burgey]

As a bowler Kallis had to compete with the likes of Donald, McGrath, Pollock, Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose, Walsh, etc.

Who did Sobers compete with? And would anyone have even cared for Sobers bowling had he played in the 90's alongside the above mentioned great bowlers?

Hall, Griffith, Davidson, Gibbs, Valentine, Benaud, Mckenzie, Lindwall, Miller, Snow, Underwood, Bedi, Prasanna, Chandra, Lillee.

That's all

 

[Agent Nationaux]

I'm not old enough to have seen that lot, but most people consider bowling in the 90's to be the best.

 

[KungFu_Kallis]

On 8th February 1964, Sobers reached 4th in the world ratings with the ball.
At the same time he was ranked number 1 with the bat.

Nobody else has even come near to doing that.

For the last 12 years of his career he was ranked almost exclusively in the top 3 in the world with the bat and dipped out of the top 10 with the ball once or twice.

Nobody else has even come near to doing that.

That is why Sobers is ranked so much higher than anyone else, because he did both at the same time.

They had Reliance ICC Test player rankings back in the 60's?? Wow Ahh you mean the retrospective analysis don't you.

But wait, isn't this the same amazing ranking system which says Shakib Al Hasan is currently the world's number 1 Test all rounder? Sobers must have been really good then too.

 

[Furball]

But wait, isn't this the same amazing ranking system which says Shakib Al Hasan is currently the world's number 1 Test all rounder? Sobers must have been really good then too.

What does that say about Kallis then?

 

[Beleg]

Hall, Griffith, Davidson, Gibbs, Valentine, Benaud, Mckenzie, Lindwall, Miller, Snow, Underwood, Bedi, Prasanna, Chandra, Lillee.

That's all

Burgey,

kallis had to deal with competition from the likes of donald, pollock, ntini, steyn, nel and hayward within his own team. because he wasn't perceived to be as attacking as most of that lot he often had to bowl a containment line - and his bowling's generally considered more of a bonus than an intrinsic weapon in its own right. putting aside the psychological impact on him,

arguably he picked up a lot of wickets because of the pressure sustained by having a relatively good attack behind him and i can see the intuitive sense in this - and i can debate this point till the cows come home - but i really think, based on watching him bowl quite often, his role within the bowling attacks he has been part of have actually hindered kallis' stats more than the other way around.

with all due respect, i don't reckon sobers' contemporaries within his team have the same pedigree. i am pretty sure kallis would have been right up there with sobers in the west indian team of 1960s based purely on his bowling skills. sobers appears to be, demonstrably, a better batsman though the sheer amount of cricket kallis has played, in all sorts of conditions around the world, is something that isn't recognised enough. it's an important aspect of the longevity debate

in the latest series versus sri lanka, kallis was still firing them in around 140k at the age of 36. these are the kind of deliveries that'll be as tricky to negotiate in 1962 as they are in 2012. i have a great deal of respect for sobers bowling skills, primarily because of the regard his contemporaries seem to hold him in, but nothing i've read suggests to me that sobers maintained this kind of penetration in his advanced years.

 

[Athlai]

I'm finally coming to the opinion that Kallis > Ponting and everyone else in the last 15 odd years besides Lara and Tendulkar. Still don't think he was as good as Sobers.

 

[Burgey]

Burgey,

kallis had to deal with competition from the likes of donald, pollock, ntini, steyn, nel and hayward within his own team. because he wasn't perceived to be as attacking as most of that lot he often had to bowl a containment line - and his bowling's generally considered more of a bonus than an intrinsic weapon in its own right. putting aside the psychological impact on him,

arguably he picked up a lot of wickets because of the pressure sustained by having a relatively good attack behind him and i can see the intuitive sense in this - and i can debate this point till the cows come home - but i really think, based on watching him bowl quite often, his role within the bowling attacks he has been part of have actually hindered kallis' stats more than the other way around.

with all due respect, i don't reckon sobers' contemporaries within his team have the same pedigree. i am pretty sure kallis would have been right up there with sobers in the west indian team of 1960s based purely on his bowling skills. sobers appears to be, demonstrably, a better batsman though the sheer amount of cricket kallis has played, in all sorts of conditions around the world, is something that isn't recognised enough. it's an important aspect of the longevity debate

in the latest series versus sri lanka, kallis was still firing them in around 140k at the age of 36. these are the kind of deliveries that'll be as tricky to negotiate in 1962 as they are in 2012. i have a great deal of respect for sobers bowling skills, primarily because of the regard his contemporaries seem to hold him in, but nothing i've read suggests to me that sobers maintained this kind of penetration in his advanced years.

I don't care. He's toured here a million times and I've never, not once ever, had the slightest concern he would destroy us with bat or ball. He may accumulate a score in that manner of his where he doesnt care about his team, or take one or two wickets, but really, let's be honest, when he bowls to batsmen who aren't scared of waist high balls, he looks as penetrative as Yadav did in Sydney.

Whoever it was(it may have been your good self) asked what competition Sobers had and I listed some of the bowlers he was in competition with. Sorry, but it was an answer to the question which was asked.

And LOL Nantie Hayward.

 

[Burgey]

I'm not old enough to have seen that lot, but most people consider bowling in the 90's to be the best.

No, most people on here who happened to grow up in the 90s think it the best because they had posters of those blokes on their bedroom wall.

You asked who the bowlers were he had to compete with, I'm just listing them. Oh got an answer then responded with a glib "oh, 90s was the best".

I omitted Trueman and Statham btw. Not sure if Laker and Tyson crossed over with Sobers as well.

 

[L Trumper]

Agh! can't believe have to repeat again

Sobers was the best batsman of his generation. He had damn good series with bowling i.e. close to topping bowling charts. During period from 60 - 68 he was averaging 66 with the bat, 29 with the ball.

For all those who keep on harping about his bowling SR, what about his batting SR? which is reputedly by far the best in that era.

 

[Burgey]

I'm finally coming to the opinion that Kallis > Ponting and everyone else in the last 15 odd years besides Lara and Tendulkar. Still don't think he was as good as Sobers.

/trollface, surely?

You think Kallis is a better batsman than Ricky Ponting? Bitch, please.

 

[L Trumper]

No, most people on here who happened to grow up in the 90s think it the best because they had posters of those blokes on their bedroom wall.

You asked who the bowlers were he had to compete with, I'm just listing them. Oh got an answer then responded with a glib "oh, 90s was the best".

I omitted Trueman and Statham btw. Not sure if Laker and Tyson crossed over with Sobers as well.

Don't think he faced tyson in test cricket, probably in first class.

 

[Beleg]

I don't care. He's toured here a million times and I've never, not once ever, had the slightest concern he would destroy us with bat or ball. He may accumulate a score in that manner of his where he doesnt care about his team, or take one or two wickets, but really, let's be honest, when he bowls to batsmen who aren't scared of waist high balls, he looks as penetrative as Yadav did in Sydney.

Whoever it was(it may have been your good self) asked what competition Sobers had and I listed some of the bowlers he was in competition with. Sorry, but it was an answer to the question which was asked.

And LOL Nantie Hayward.

that might be so, in which case he's about as penetrative as sobers

and nantie hayward's comparable to the likes of charlie griffith. ain't a massive difference between them.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

/trollface, surely?

You think Kallis is a better batsman than Ricky Ponting? Bitch, please.

Ponting better to watch. Kallis the better batsman. All this "selfish Kallis" stuff really is crap. Would you prefer him to be wafting outside off-stump with lazy airy-fairy shots because "that's the way he plays"?

Whoever it was(it may have been your good self) asked what competition Sobers had and I listed some of the bowlers he was in competition with. Sorry, but it was an answer to the question which was asked.
.

He wasn't in contest with all of them at the same time though, was he?

Hall, Griffith, Davidson, Gibbs, Valentine, Benaud, Mckenzie, Lindwall, Miller, Snow, Underwood, Bedi, Prasanna, Chandra, Lillee

Which is surely more relevant when trying to determine the impact on his bowling ranking. Whilst, the list provided of Kallis' 90s contemporaries:

Donald, McGrath, Pollock, Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose, Walsh,

They would have been direct competition for bowling rankings at the same time as Kallis' bowling peak.

Lillee, for example, is a complete irrelevance as by his debut in 71, I doubt whether Sobers was reasonably at his peak. He took 40 more wickets over the remainder of his career post 1970.