Kallis vs Sobers, Donald vs Steyn, Trott vs Pollock

[KungFu_Kallis]

/trollface, surely?

You think Kallis is a better batsman than Ricky Ponting? Bitch, please.

Ponting in a nutshell:

2002-2006 (57 Tests) - averaged about 72

Rest of his career (103 Tests) - averaged about 42

If form is temporary and class is permanent... then either Ponting is a class player who has been out of form for 2/3 of his career.. (lol)... or maybe he's just an ordinary player who had a 4 year purple patch?

 

[Jarquis]

Would take Kallis above Ponting too.

 

[Burgey]

Ponting better to watch. Kallis the better batsman. All this "selfish Kallis" stuff really is crap. Would you prefer him to be wafting outside off-stump with lazy airy-fairy shots because "that's the way he plays"?



He wasn't in contest with all of them at the same time though, was he?

Hall, Griffith, Davidson, Gibbs, Valentine, Benaud, Mckenzie, Lindwall, Miller, Snow, Underwood, Bedi, Prasanna, Chandra, Lillee

Which is surely more relevant when trying to determine the impact on his bowling ranking. Whilst, the list provided of Kallis' 90s contemporaries:

Donald, McGrath, Pollock, Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose, Walsh,

They would have been direct competition for bowling rankings at the same time as Kallis' bowling peak.

Lillee, for example, is a complete irrelevance as by his debut in 71, I doubt whether Sobers was reasonably at his peak. He took 40 more wickets over the remainder of his career post 1970.

No, he's a selfish cricketer IMO, whether you think it's crap or not. Just as you think Kallis is a better player than Ponting despite my thinking you've taken leave of your senses.

Edit: on this point I mean, not in general

 

[Cabinet96]

The South African team have always had a safety first approach so I don't see how Kallis being cautious can be selfish. It's funny because if he got a quickfire 40 and nicked off people would say it was careless .

And as an all round cricketer I would definitely take Kallis over Ponting. Not sure about batting alone.

 

[Burgey]

Ponting in a nutshell:

2002-2006 (57 Tests) - averaged about 72

Rest of his career (103 Tests) - averaged about 42

If form is temporary and class is permanent... then either Ponting is a class player who has been out of form for 2/3 of his career.. (lol)... or maybe he's just an ordinary player who had a 4 year purple patch?

I don't mean this disrespectfully, but do you actually watch cricket or just read spread sheets? Genuine question

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

No, he's a selfish cricketer IMO, whether you think it's crap or not. Just as you think Kallis is a better player than Ponting despite my thinking you've taken leave of your senses.

If he was that selfish, I think he'd have told Graeme Smith years ago that he's giving up the bowling entirely. Much like McCullum's given up keeping in Tests. If he was that concerned about his numbers then why not. They'd hardly boot him out of the team for it. I'm not surprised he only averages about 12.5 overs per innings though. We saw at Sydney what happens when a top order batsman (Sehwag) has to shoulder a fair chunk of the bowling.

 

[Burgey]

The South African team have always had a safety first approach so I don't see how Kallis being cautious can be selfish. It's funny because if he got a quickfire 40 and nicked off people would say it was careless .

And as an all round cricketer I would definitely take Kallis over Ponting. Not sure about batting alone.

Indeed. But if you want to take everything into account, then we should factor in that Sobers was captain and is also widely regarded as one of the greatest fielders of all time.

 

[Cabinet96]

Doubt Sehwag bowling a lot was the reason he didn't get any runs in Sydney tbh.

 

[Burgey]

As a bowler Kallis had to compete with the likes of Donald, McGrath, Pollock, Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose, Walsh, etc.

Who did Sobers compete with? And would anyone have even cared for Sobers bowling had he played in the 90's alongside the above mentioned great bowlers?

They'd probably think his bowling was a bonus, like Kallis' was for SA in the 90s.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Doubt Sehwag bowling a lot was the reason he didn't get any runs in Sydney tbh.

It can't help though, can it.

 

[Cabinet96]

It can't help though, can it.

Yeah, fair enough.

 

[Burgey]

It can't help though, can it.

Not when he isn't used to bowling, no.

 

[Furball]

Ponting in a nutshell:

2002-2006 (57 Tests) - averaged about 72

Rest of his career (103 Tests) - averaged about 42

If form is temporary and class is permanent... then either Ponting is a class player who has been out of form for 2/3 of his career.. (lol)... or maybe he's just an ordinary player who had a 4 year purple patch?

Yeah. Ordinary players have purple patches where they average 72 over 57 Tests.

 

[marc71178]

pretty damned impressive, and given the era he played in, up there, if not better, than sobers' achievement.

Erm no, not by a long long way.

 

[marc71178]

They had Reliance ICC Test player rankings back in the 60's?? Wow Ahh you mean the retrospective analysis don't you.

But wait, isn't this the same amazing ranking system which says Shakib Al Hasan is currently the world's number 1 Test all rounder? Sobers must have been really good then too.

What does it matter if it's retrospective or not, it's been done under the same system.

As for all rounder ratings, I've not mentioned them as I'm not sure they're that reliable, but batting and bowling are better and to have the sort of run Sobers has says a lot more than some stupid idea that his SR means he was useless.

 

[Ruckus]

Yeah. Ordinary players have purple patches where they average 72 over 57 Tests.

haha yeah...what a joke.

 

[KungFu_Kallis]

haha yeah...what a joke.

So it's not how well you do overall, it's only the good parts that determine what a kick ass player you are?

Imho "all time greats" need to at least have some sort of consistency or quality over their whole, or certainly most of their career. Many batsmen have had a few good years. But to be talked of as "all time great" tends to imply quality all the way through. Or it's a fairly worthless term tbh

 

[Jono]

Saying Kallis > Ponting shouldn't be an outlandish statement now, surely? Not saying it is a correct statement, but Kallis in the last 3 years has been nothing short of immense. Reckon he deserves to be in that company.

 

[Furball]

Saying Kallis > Ponting shouldn't be an outlandish statement now, surely? Not saying it is a correct statement, but Kallis in the last 3 years has been nothing short of immense. Reckon he deserves to be in that company.

Kallis has had too many years of being meh for me, regardless of what the numbers say.

 

[Burgey]

It's an outrageous comment if you've watched them bat over their careers.