Who should be England's third seamer?

[centurymaker]

No one has had a go at him except maybe Bun.

But some people can't seem to come to except the fact that he may be slightly behind or even equal to some Indian bowlers and not clearly better as they were claiming for a year or more now.
They are all in the same ball park.

ofcourse.

 

[Cevno]

Should have said that about a year to 6/7 months back and seen the reaction.

Broad was supposed to be far ahead of any "Bangladesh standard" Indian bowlers except ZAK. Bun is just doing the opposite now.
And i disagree with both.

 

[GIMH]

Yeah, because 6/7 months ago Broad had just come off a year that was better than what any India seamer has ever had...it's not ****ing hard Cevno.

 

[centurymaker]

Yeah, because 6/7 months ago Broad had just come off a year that was better than what any India seamer has ever had...it's not ****ing hard Cevno.

I remember tendulkar and many others tipping broad to do really well in the ashes.

 

[GIMH]

Well he never got going...he only got to bowl in two innings really. DOn't think you can really look at his stats from there as a fair measure.

Edit - I know you weren't, btw centurymaker, just pre-empting before Cevno or some Precam multi brings up his average of 80 or whatever it was in the Ashes

 

[Cevno]

Yeah, because 6/7 months ago Broad had just come off a year that was better than what any India seamer has ever had...it's not ****ing hard Cevno.

Really?

So are you telling me that it is fair to judge them selectively when Broad is on form while the Indian bowlers are not , but not fair to judge selectively when Broad is **** and Indian bowlers in form?
I say we need to be balanced both ways.

Again you want to have the cake and eat it too,though.

 

[centurymaker]

Well he never got going...he only got to bowl in two innings really. DOn't think you can really look at his stats from there as a fair measure.

Edit - I know you weren't, btw centurymaker, just pre-empting before Cevno or some Precam multi brings up his average of 80 or whatever it was in the Ashes

Yeah, I was just trying to back your point about him being seen as a really good bowler at that time.

 

[GIMH]

Really?

So are you telling me that it is fair to judge them selectively when Broad is on form while the Indian bowlers are not , but not fair to judge selectively when Broad is **** and Indian bowlers in form?
I say we need to be balanced both ways.

Again you want to have the cake and eat it too,though.

****ing hell Cevno. You really do like you argue with what isn't there don't you? Perhaps you read posts a few more times before replying to them, because I am sick of you responding to my posts with straw man arguments laced with victim mentality.

I did not say that we should only compare them when Broad is having a good year. I'm sure you'd like me to have said that, I'm sure in two years you'll dig up my quote as evidence of some other bull**** argument, but I didn't.

What I was saying, was that Broad bowled better from Headingley 09 up until the Ashes in the winter, than Sharma, Sree etc have over such a period at any point in their careers.

If Ishant was to sustain his current form when he comes to England and then in Australia, then I'll happily change my stance on that. Until then, I don't see any problem with what I said.

We should compare them over their careers and most of us do not believe that Sree/Ishant have hit the heights Broad hit 09-10.

Several people have now made this point. It is not my fault if you choose to ignore it.

 

[Cevno]

Sreesanth averaged 24.37 in 2006 taking 35 wickets ,while exactly a year from today till now Ishant is averaging 27.26 with 45 wickets.
While your argument is centred around Broad averaging 28.36 in 2009.

There are other factors too ,which i won't go into but that argument that "We should compare them over their careers and most of us do not believe that Sree/Ishant have hit the heights Broad hit 09-10" falls flat on the face at the start itself.

And is completely False and won't become more true if you keep bringing it up.It was a straw man argument in the first place in any case.

 

[GIMH]

Do you know what a straw man argument is Cevno? I directly responded to your 'you should have tried saying that 6/7 months ago' argument

I didn't say 2009 for Broad's best period, I said 09-10, and I'm not going to engage in stats, I'm sure I could manipulate some to suit my argument if I wanted to.

 

[Cevno]

You were saying that they have not matched Broad's best period when they infact have.Were you not?

My argument was that it was as unfair writing them off 5/6 months ago compared to Broad as it is now to write off Broad compared to them.
You are pretty much arguing for the sake of it now.

If you think Broad is being rubbished unfairly right now ,which in part i agree with you should have tried defending Ishant Sharma after the South Africa series and then you would know.
Even look at the start of the Will Broad make it to Indian team thread to see who was being relatively unfairly written off as Rubbish or Bangladesh standard or as VCS put it "timbuktu 11" bowlers.

 

[GIMH]

I don't think they have matched Broad's best period. Matched != got the same stats. FFFFFFFFFFS

 

[vcs]

Sreesanth averaged 24.37 in 2006 taking 35 wickets ,while exactly a year from today till now Ishant is averaging 27.26 with 45 wickets.
While your argument is centred around Broad averaging 28.36 in 2009.

There are other factors too ,which i won't go into but that argument that "We should compare them over their careers and most of us do not believe that Sree/Ishant have hit the heights Broad hit 09-10" falls flat on the face at the start itself.

And is completely False and won't become more true if you keep bringing it up.It was a straw man argument in the first place in any case.

Irrespective of his fantastic average in the current series, many Indian fans believe Ishant was actually bowling better against Australia-England in late 2008 (decent batting lineups on less responsive tracks), averaging mid-20s in that period. So I don't think it's fair to say that Ishant has never matched Broad's peak, statistically or otherwise.

 

[Cevno]

Yeah,agree.

But i have tried arguing about the late 2008 period before ,so thought should try something new here too .

 

[biased indian]

Irrespective of his fantastic average in the current series, many Indian fans believe Ishant was actually bowling better against Australia-England in late 2008 (decent batting lineups on less responsive tracks), averaging mid-20s in that period. So I don't think it's fair to say that Ishant has never matched Broad's peak, statistically or otherwise.

ishanth sharma even with out this test series considered will be having a better avg than SB rt ?

 

[Burgey]

Irrespective of his fantastic average in the current series, many Indian fans believe Ishant was actually bowling better against Australia-England in late 2008 (decent batting lineups on less responsive tracks), averaging mid-20s in that period. So I don't think it's fair to say that Ishant has never matched Broad's peak, statistically or otherwise.

I don't think anyone disputes that Sharma was eye-catching when he started. I had high hopes for him myself. He had a fairly long period of mediocrity though, and I don't know that you can say he's yet done enough to say he wasn't an early flash in the pan.

Cricket is a bit like politics. As Jack Lang said to Paul Keating "Beware the skyrockets. They start off spectacularly, but fizzle out and a burnt out stick falls back to earth".

 

[Teja.]

I don't think they have matched Broad's best period. Matched != got the same stats. FFFFFFFFFFS

I'd say Sree actually fully deserved the low-20s average in his first year. He bowled plenty of awesome spells in that period for no wickets too. I'd take Sree of '06 over Broad of any period.

 

[Jacknife]

Really?

So are you telling me that it is fair to judge them selectively when Broad is on form while the Indian bowlers are not , but not fair to judge selectively when Broad is **** and Indian bowlers in form?
I say we need to be balanced both ways.

Again you want to have the cake and eat it too,though.

I've already said in this thread and I think it was to you, there's a difference between being out of form and coming back from 2 severe cases of injury, which he obviously is because before his injury in the Ashes he's bowled well for some time. I think to try to rubbish Broad because of recent injuries is really dishonest and I'm not saying you are doing that but that's what has happened.

 

[Cevno]

I've already said in this thread and I think it was to you, there's a difference between being out of form and coming back from 2 severe cases of injury, which he obviously is because before his injury in the Ashes he's bowled well for some time. I think to try to rubbish Broad because of recent injuries is really dishonest and I'm not saying you are doing that but that's what has happened.

Wasn't to me , and as you said i am not rubbishing Broad compared to anyone at all, like some have rubbished Ishant and Sreesanth in the past compared to him.(Which was the point in the first place)

And the point in the post you quoted is valid for either Injuries or form in that context.
Besides Injuries in any case affects form and performance greatly and the other 2 also have had their fair share of injury problems in the past.

 

[Jacknife]

Wasn't to me , and as you said i am not rubbishing Broad compared to anyone at all, like some have rubbished Ishant and Sreesanth in the past compared to him.(Which was the point in the first place)

And the point in the post you quoted is valid for either Injuries or form in that context.
Besides Injuries in any case affects form and performance greatly and the other 2 also have had their fair share of injury problems in the past.

It was mate but in the other thread about Broad making India's first 11.

Like I've said before, it's hard to judge Broad right now because he's obviously struggling with form, after coming back from, back to back serious injuries and I think it's a bit dishonest to do so. We'll see when they meet in a few weeks who performs the best.

Yep. That is fair enough.

But still think Ishanth has easily the most potential of the 3 that were initially in question.

Had to bump some thread after his 10fer ,and some of the comments in this thread with regards to him are really bad and unfair
As if he was some timbuktu bowler.