England can beat India "every day of week": Gough

[Jarquis]

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

You can't break it down into series though really; you can only get overall records by bowlers in Australia within any given timeframe, so Anderson appears as 22 wickets @ 41. You can still compare him to the others though.

Still adamant 06/07 wasn't Jimmeh

 

[Jarquis]

Oh, we're bringing up 06-07 Anderson, fun times

You're not allowed to defend him! He's the same bowler!







Isn't he Burge?

 

[Jarquis]

Indeed.

No performance less relevant has ever been spoken about as much.

He was coming in cold off a long injury lay-off with no match fitness and a completely new and remodelled action, which he later canned. He had no business playing and the only reason he was rushed in was the fact that Flintoff (perhaps justifiably) had absolutely no faith in Saj Mahmood. Add in the fact that the team was getting absolutely smashed and it's hardly surprise he didn't bowl well. It's actually a credit to him that he managed to bowl well in Sydney and put in an absolutely superb display in an ODI later on the tour given the circumstances.

I said it before the series (many times) and I think I've been vindicated. It wasn't ridiculous to have concerns about Anderson's potency in Australia, but those who had them should've only done so based on his performances at other times whenever swing wasn't on offer; not the 2006/07 series.

I've made this post about 40 times now; should save it on my laptop and just C+P every time tbh.

I even tried leading the people into the bolded when I had my discussion about it. But they still preferred to focus on 06/07 lololol

 

[Jarquis]

.

I don't like disagreeing with you constantly


Discalimer : I'm **** faced

 

[Jono]

lol what a joke. Fairly sure Zaheer would prefer to play on bowler friendly wickets than Indian wickets, regardless of home advantage. It's a testimony to how good he has become recently that he does indeed succel on batting friendly wickets.

Yeah awta.

 

[vcs]

I'm not sure where I stand on the "Zaheer > Anderson because he bowls on unhelpful pitches" debate, because I've often brought up his recent record in India to show that good bowlers can do a great job even on Indian wickets that are stereotyped as flat, boring and "killing Test cricket". With the odd exception (Ahmedabad) I subscribe to the theory that most pitches are only as flat as the bowlers bowling on them.

That said, it is possible that the process of learning to bowl effectively on subcontinental wickets makes fast bowlers more intelligent, patient and versatile.

 

[Jarquis]

Yeah awta.

But if Zaheer didn't know how to take wickets on Indian pitches he wouldn't be playing at the level he currenty is. Ultimately, every bowler begins as a product of their own environment.

 

[vcs]

But if Zaheer didn't know how to take wickets on Indian pitches he wouldn't be playing at the level he currenty is. Ultimately, every bowler begins as a product of their own environment.

I think many Indian pace bowling prospects often start out with a lot of fanfare based on some promising performances in helpful conditions overseas (Sreesanth in SA 2006, Zaheer in England 2007, Ishant in Australia 2008) but take a long time to figure out how to become effective on the Test wickets that India play on at home.. even Zaheer's home figures have shown a marked improvement only in 2010 after the breakout series he had in England in 2007.

 

[GotSpin]

But if Zaheer didn't know how to take wickets on Indian pitches he wouldn't be playing at the level he currenty is. Ultimately, every bowler begins as a product of their own environment.

Of course he knows how to bowl on Indian wickets, but if he bowls well on wickets that generally heavily favour batsmen, isn't it logical to presume he'd have even more favourable statistics if he played the majority of his career in another country.

Same argument as Warne IMO. While he obviously 'mastered' Australian spinning conditions, it's a testimony to his skill level than anything else. I'm sure he would have preferred playing on more favourable wickets for spin

 

[Jarquis]

Of course he knows how to bowl on Indian wickets, but if he bowls well on wickets that generally heavily favour batsmen, isn't it logical to presume he'd have even more favourable statistics if he played the majority of his career in another country.

Same argument as Warne IMO. While he obviously 'mastered' Australian spinning conditions, it's a testimony to his skill level than anything else. I'm sure he would have preferred playing on more favourable wickets for spin

So you'd expect players like Johnson to do well in England, for example?
Or Warne's record in India? etc
It's not that simple

 

[Jono]

Warne's record in India has nothing to do with the tracks.

 

[GotSpin]

So you'd expect players like Johnson to do well in England, for example?
Or Warne's record in India? etc
It's not that simple

You've completely missed the point here.

Johnson likes bouncy wickets predominantly, so he likes Australia and South Africa

I also didn't say that Warne would wish to play against Indian batsmen for his entire career, but I'm sure he'd prefer to have Indian or Sri Lankan pitches as his home pitches.

 

[Jarquis]

You've completely missed the point here.

Johnson likes bouncy wickets predominantly, so he likes Australia and South Africa
.

I'll concede the Warne point, I was being a ****.

But Johnson is a classical example of what disproves your point. Australian pitches are typically batsmen friendly. English conditions are not
. For reasons A/B/C Johsnon does better on his home pitches, so it's not ludicrous to suggest Zaheer prefers his own.

 

[silentstriker]

But if Zaheer didn't know how to take wickets on Indian pitches he wouldn't be playing at the level he currenty is. Ultimately, every bowler begins as a product of their own environment.

Worcestershire.

I'll concede the Warne point, I was being a ****.

But Johnson is a classical example of what disproves your point. Australian pitches are typically batsmen friendly. English conditions are not
. For reasons A/B/C Johsnon does better on his home pitches, so it's not ludicrous to suggest Zaheer prefers his own.

Um, Australian and SA pitches have more bounce, which suits Johnson and he does well. English pitches need more swing type bowlers which Johnson is not, and thus is not as good there. I don't see what you're talking about.

 

[silentstriker]

You've completely missed the point here.

Johnson likes bouncy wickets predominantly, so he likes Australia and South Africa

I also didn't say that Warne would wish to play against Indian batsmen for his entire career, but I'm sure he'd prefer to have Indian or Sri Lankan pitches as his home pitches.

As evidence, Warne's record in Sri Lanka is exceptional.

 

[silentstriker]

I'm not devaluing Zaheer's performances - he does deserve credit. But I'm not gonna make a song and dance about the fact he's done it on Indian pitches, because a player should be able to perform at home. And as such, I personally don't think it's a reason to elevate him above Anderson.

First even if you make English pitches for England and Indian pitches for Zaheer as equivalent....which by the way is the biggest joke ever, I think Zaheer comes out ahead.

With that said, when you say a 'player should be able to perform at home'....how do rest of Indian fast bowlers perform at home? Surely that's the comparison?

Secondly, I'm not sure what that means in reality. How does he bowl differently in India that somehow 90% of visiting fast bowlers haven't figured out? He's a swing bowler ffs....it's pretty much the same lengths and line that he bowls. It's not some magic of knowing some deep secrets about bowling in Mumbai vs. London.

 

[Jono]

Another example, Hilf is more suited to English conditions compared to Australian conditions.

 

[Jarquis]

Worcestershire.



Um, Australian and SA pitches have more bounce, which suits Johnson and he does well. English pitches need more swing type bowlers which Johnson is not, and thus is not as good there. I don't see what you're talking about.

I'm not the one making generalisations about "bowler friendly" and "unhelpful" but since people are willing to, I felt obliged to go along with the consensus.
Basically what you've just said is individual bowlers have their own preferences to conditions, so saying "Zaheer would've preferred to play elsewhere is little more than speculation"

 

[Jarquis]

First even if you make English pitches for England and Indian pitches for Zaheer as equivalent....which by the way is the biggest joke ever, I think Zaheer comes out ahead.

With that said, when you say a 'player should be able to perform at home'....how do rest of Indian fast bowlers perform at home? Surely that's the comparison?

Secondly, I'm not sure what that means in reality. How does he bowl differently in India that somehow 90% of visiting fast bowlers haven't figured out? He's a swing bowler ffs....it's pretty much the same lengths and line that he bowls. It's not some magic of knowing some deep secrets about bowling in Mumbai vs. London.

No, because all other Indian fast bowlers are really bad. Like, properly bad. Terribad

 

[silentstriker]

I'm not the one making generalisations about "bowler friendly" and "unhelpful" but since people are willing to, I felt obliged to go along with the consensus.
Basically what you've just said is individual bowlers have their own preferences to conditions, so saying "Zaheer would've preferred to play elsewhere is little more than speculation"

Well, considering he came out and said he likes to play in England more than the subcontinent......I would say it's indeed more than speculation.

This was an interview right after he finished his stint with Worcestershire.