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Where does Kallis rate as a batsman alone?

G.I.Joe

International Coach
Given that his career average is almost 57, it's not like he's done that much worse away.

With the exception of England, where he averages 29 away, his record home and away against most countries is pretty consistent. It's probably his record in England which drags his away average below his home average.
I'm not saying he's poor overseas. I'm just questioning the logic of the argument that just because Sachin and Ponting might not average outside SA what Kallis does in SA, they are not likely to average in SA what Kallis does. Because Kallis himself falls into the same category as Sachin and Ponting in not averaging as much outside SA as Kallis does in SA, and he's done pretty well in SA despite that.
 

Mike5181

International Captain
Yeah, isn't it remarkable that immediately following the retirement/decline of some great fast bowlers and flattening of pitches how so many batsmen like Inzamam, Ponting, Kallis, Dravid, Jayawardene etc. etc. all become much better players.

Must be top billing for 'Coincidence of the Century' award.
I think there is an element of both. Weaker bowlers but they are just better players now. 3-4 years learning the ropes then they come into their own.
 

G.I.Joe

International Coach
Yes! In the same way that his poor record against Australia relative to Sachin also implies that he's much better than Sachin at batting against someone else, somewhere.

My argument isn't that Kallis is somehow better than Tendulkar because he scores more heavily on his home pitches where runs mysteriously count double because conditions most resemble those that were present Back in the Glorious Nineties. It's merely that he's at a disadvantage because of where he has to play his home games. All batsmen have these advantages and disadvantages relative to one another. Tendulkar had pretty friendly home conditions, but he also had to play for longer against some of the best bowlers around. Ponting was part of a winning team, but he's also been burdened with captaincy for a huge chunk of his career. Kallis's disadvantages, given how much less popular he is, tend to receive a lot less attention than Tendulkar's or Ponting's, and since playing home games in South Africa is a huge disadvantage relative to those two I thought pointing it out would correct that a touch.

You should be aware of how little I care for weighing these advantages and disadvantages off against each other though. I don't think there's any conceivable way to decipher them, and I certainly don't think "watching them play" is a good way of trying to make up our minds on the subject when the margins are so fine. Cognitive biases are just too damn strong to even make a wild guess, and trying to do so would make cricket really boring. AFAIC, if they've both scored a similar amount of runs at a similar average over a very long period of time, they're round about as good at batting as each other. Given that, Kallis's bowling makes him a much, much more valuable player than any of the batsmen that he averages within a couple of runs of. And that's the source of my Kallis-love :p.
****ing fanboy




:ph34r:
 

akilana

International 12th Man
I don't see your point... if you're saying Kallis's home record being so much better than his peers is a big plus point, surely it must be the same for Lara? (can't be bothered to check the exact figures). Ponting and Tendulkar have had some great batsmen playing alongside them so they don't have such a big advantage there.
Even most of the SA players average less at home than away. AB and Smith average mid 50 away. That's the reason Kallis's home record is very impressive.

If Sachin and Lara's peers(regardless of how great they're) averaged lesser in home conditions and average higher away from home, it'd mean that batting in their home conditions is harder and therefore their record would standout.

I remember people were talking about in SA vs India thread how the SA pitches would bring non so great bowlers into play. Lesser bowlers become dangerous in SA conditions, don't they?
 

G.I.Joe

International Coach
The downside of talking up Kallis's batting record in tough conditions at home is of course, bringing into question whether he really is a better bowler than Garry Sobers, considering he must conversely benefit from those conditions with the ball in hand.

Who knew that one single double hundred against a popgun attack would cause both me and bagapath to re-evaluate our opinions, if only to the slightest degree :p
Although I'm still not sure bagapath isn't just carrying on taking the piss.
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
Oops, It was a huge oversight to exclude Steve Waugh and I am infact sane. Tbf To UC, I'm disgusted with myself now. :p

Better than everybody bar Tendulkar in that list and I think Sanga will end his career as better.
 

vcs

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Even most of the SA players average less at home than away. AB and Smith average mid 50 away. That's the reason Kallis's home record is very impressive.

If Sachin and Lara's peers(regardless of how great they're) averaged lesser in home conditions and average higher away from home, it'd mean that batting in their home conditions is harder and therefore their record would standout.

I remember people were talking about in SA vs India thread how the SA pitches would bring non so great bowlers into play. Lesser bowlers become dangerous in SA conditions, don't they?
Yeah, I was responding to Uppercut, now I see his point in his longer post, which is fair enough.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
Stop being deliberately obtuse, you watch enough cricket to know that batting in South Africa is much more difficult than batting in India or Australia. The fact that games there always involve South Africa makes it impossible to gauge the effect statistically, but where he plays his home cricket is a big disadvantage for Kallis, and his sheer, unmatched dominance there is pretty impressive.
FWIW I don't actually consider scoring runs against the best bowlers necessarily better than scoring them against mediocre ones. Funny, because it's a much harder and rarer skill. But the game of cricket doesn't assign any additional importance to runs depending on the quality of the attack so I don't see why I should.
So what you are saying is that difficulty of playing in different conditions must be considered, but not the difficulty of playing against different attacks? Can't agree with that, to be honest.
 
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Migara

International Coach
It was better when you were banned. Children rejoiced in the streets. Bon fires were started.

I look forward to your next injection of a Sri Lankan player into a discussion that neither needed or warranted it, presuming, of course, that said discussion involved overrated non Sri lankan players.
Classic shooting of the messenger when even clutching straws is not possible.
 

NasserFan207

International Vice-Captain
Overall he's a better cricketer than Tendulkar, Lara or Ponting. In fact I'd argue that statistically Kallis has been the most effective test cricketer of all time.

As a batsman he's somewhere in the top 20, but there's a lot of personal opinion which comes into play there.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
So what you are saying is that difficulty of playing in different conditions must be considered, but not the difficulty of playing against different attacks? Can't agree with that, to be honest.
Well... there is a point to be made that it is difficult to score runs there. Have a look at ABdV's home record, for such a good player it's surprisingly poor.
 

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