***Official*** Tendulkar vs Ponting Thread

[vcs]

Thats only going to make Ikki's argument look more convincing sicne a young Poting actually did better. Just my take on this situation

Aussie has used the word "commendable" for Tendulkar's performance in SA in '92 whereas Ikki would describe it as "poor", ignoring the fact that the highest average anyone managed in that series was 45. Tendulkar as a teenager managed 33.6 in the series with a hundred and a fifty. Meh, poor, I guess.

Also, a "poor" average of 35-odd as a 16 year old against Imran, Wasim and Waqar, saving a Test along the way.

Anyway, while doing some of the above research I noted that Tendulkar played 20 of his first 21 Tests away from home (in places like Pakistan, Australia, England and SA) and managed to hold down a first team spot, score four hundreds and average 38.6 in that time. Fantastic by most people's standards, but poor by some others' I guess.

 

[Ikki]

I've had this argument with Aussie before and, frankly, it's absurd so I am not going to get into it again. He thinks we shouldn't count those innings because Ponting wasn't the real deal yet...when that's a great reason to give him even more credit because of that fact.

Really ??!!!

How do you mean?

 

[vcs]

I remember that series very fondly. I followed most of it via radio. Most of us in the WI had many a sleepless night over the prospect of WI losing a series for the 1st time in years. I think Adams was goin through a purple patch at the time and Lara was brought down to earth for the 1st time in a while.Tactically i think Walsh distinguihsed himself by sending lara in the 3rd test to open and he blasted his way to 91 and should have been a hundred had lara not walked when the umpire gave him not out .

Yes, that was a brilliant innings. FFS, I can't believe ****ing Raju troubled Lara.

We used to call Adams "Padams" because he stuck his pads out to everything.

 

[kingjulian]

Yup i'm always amazed at how Tendy's record against Pak in the 90s is brought up as a weakness against pace.

He played 2 series and a one-off test againt them - the asia cup in Sharjah i think.

First series - he played as a 16 year old. Against Waqar Younis, Wasim Akram and Imran Khan. The very definition of a fair fight. This is also actually 80s, but it never stops people from digging it up.

Second series - He did not get out once to a pace bowler. It was Saqlain Mustaq who got him out three times, Mushtaq Ahmad got him once and he was run-out once. Indian batsmen had trouble reading Saqlain's Doosra in this series. He still scored a century. But it is far from the he was troubled by pace story.

One off test in Asia cup - Akthar happened - ran through the Indian batting order. Sometime the man was just unstoppable, and it is not uncommon for great batsmen to have a failure in a test match...especially again a bowler of Akthar's caliber, who incidentally has had his fair share of success against Ponting.

He has struggled against South Africa - home and away, compared to his high standards. But that is not enough for me to think, he had a weakness against pace bowling.

 

[Slifer]

I've had this argument with Aussie before and, frankly, it's absurd so I am not going to get into it again. He thinks we shouldn't count those innings because Ponting wasn't the real deal yet...when that's a great reason to give him even more credit because of that fact.




How do you mean?

didnt realise Tendy's stats took such a nose dive if u removed Zim and Bang

 

[Ikki]

Also, a "poor" average of 35-odd as a 16 year old against Imran, Wasim and Waqar, saving a Test along the way.

Ironically though, he did better there than he did against the Pakistan attack when he was in his 20s and in his prime.

 

[Ikki]

didnt realise Tendy's stats took such a nose dive if u removed Zim and Bang

Yeah well, a lot of players all over have their careers padded to an extent except for the Australian team last decade which really didn't play either team much at all. Much like the WIndies in the 80s when you look at Marshall's and Viv's stats they never played Sri Lanka; while Hadlee, Imran, Gavaskar, Miandad and Border did.

In fact, if you look at it in terms of the 50s and 100s argument; Tendulkar is only 4 100s and 4 50s ahead of Ponting.

 

[aussie]

I've had this argument with Aussie before and, frankly, it's absurd so I am not going to get into it again. He thinks we shouldn't count those innings because Ponting wasn't the real deal yet...when that's a great reason to give him even more credit because of that fact.

I never said you shouldn't count it. Of course it should be counted & given credit for.

You however IIRC wanted to use as a means to give more credit in your position that Ponting was better than Lara or Tendy (cant remember which one) in a past thread. Which is the absurb notion.

 

[kingjulian]

Ironically though, he did better there than he did against the Pakistan attack when he was in his 20s and in his prime.

You mean like in this series?

Results | Global | Cricinfo.com

Watching the game would help...

 

[vcs]

Yeah well, a lot of players all over have their careers padded to an extent except for the Australian team last decade which really didn't play either team much at all. Much like the WIndies in the 80s when you look at Marshall's and Viv's stats they never played Sri Lanka; while Hadlee, Imran, Gavaskar, Miandad and Border did.

In fact, if you look at it in terms of the 50s and 100s argument; Tendulkar is only 4 100s and 4 50s ahead of Ponting.

Ponting has never played a better innings than this one on the subcontinent BTW... but yeah, all innings played against minnows count for **** all.

 

[Ikki]

I never said you shouldn't count it. Of course it should be counted & given credit for.

You however IIRC wanted to use as a means to give more credit in your position that Ponting was better than Lara or Tendy (cant remember which one) in a past thread. Which is the absurb notion.

My position was that you can't credit Lara and Tendulkar extra praise for succeeding against the better attacks in the 90s because it seems to forget that Tendulkar had mixed success, Lara was even worse, and ironically Ponting had the better all-round success against said attacks - even if he played less matches overall. It became even more silly because the attacks Ponting did struggle with in the 90s were the weaker ones. It also seems to forget that they all played in the 00s and you can compare them there too. If Tendulkar had just played in the 90s and Ponting just in the 00s, that'd be something different.

 

[Sanz]

In fact, if you look at it in terms of the 50s and 100s argument; Tendulkar is only 4 100s and 4 50s ahead of Ponting.

Yes and If you took out all the 100s and 50s scored by Tendy, you will notice that Ponting is easily ahead in no. of 100s and 50s.

 

[Ikki]

Ponting has never played a better innings than this one on the subcontinent BTW... but yeah, all innings played against minnows count for **** all.

I understand your point, but it doesn't justify including minnows IMO. Furthermore, I'd rather criticise the rest of Ponting's teammates more than give him extra praise for performing against an opponent he should perform against and one that has never had a hope in hell of beating that side.

FTR, I think his innings in the neutral tests with Pakistan along with Hayden were very gritty innings.

 

[Sanz]

Ironically though, he did better there than he did against the Pakistan attack when he was in his 20s and in his prime.

Just link Ponting, who is doing better in India than he did at his prime.

 

[Ikki]

yes and if you took out all the 100s and 50s scored by tendy, you will notice that ponting is easily ahead in no. Of 100s and 50s.

just link ponting, who is doing better in india than he did at his prime.

.

 

[Sanz]

For your interest; in the 00s without B/Z; minimum of 25 matches played.

Yes. Filter it until it suits your agenda.

 

[Sanz]

.

That convinced me. Okay now I am convinced that Ponting is the greatest batsman since Bradman.

 

[Ikki]

You mean like in this series?

Results | Global | Cricinfo.com

Watching the game would help...

He averaged 36 when he was 16-17 and 30 when he faced them later in his prime. What's not to get?

That convinced me. Okay now I am convinced that Ponting is the greatest batsman since Bradman.

Is that all it took? Should have done that ages ago.

 

[vcs]

I understand your point, but it doesn't justify including minnows IMO. Furthermore, I'd rather criticise the rest of Ponting's teammates more than give him extra praise for performing against an opponent he should perform against and one that has never had a hope in hell of beating that side.

FTR, I think his innings in the neutral tests with Pakistan along with Hayden were very gritty innings.

You seriously wouldn't give him credit for preventing an embarrassing loss against an opponent with absolutely nothing to lose... Australia coming off a 3-0 win in SA losing in Bangladesh, do you not see what a massive comedown it would be? One could argue that Australia's loss to Bangladesh in an ODI in 2005 softened them up for the loss of the Ashes. It was a tough, tough situation and Ponting pulled them through, and Tendulkar has also bailed India out several times against minnows. So I don't agree.

If you were making the case for a batsman notorious for succeeding only against minnows I might buy it, but we're talking of great great batsmen here so I for one will certainly judge their records in totality.

 

[Sanz]

If Tendulkar had only played Australia the best team of his generation, he would have averaged better than his career average.

Wait..no ..He batted Right handed in all those matches...so those don't count.