***Official*** Tendulkar vs Ponting Thread

[four_or_six]

I call bull**** on that....

tests

ODIs

From Ponting's debut - they have played similar number of games. No body has an advantage here...

If it was possible BCCI would have these guys slave for 365 days in a year. Their calendar is just as packed as any other Cricket team's in the world.

Kingjulian, don't avoid the filter please.

 

[Ikki]

Stop being dramatic. Marc's point - if it is right, I haven't checked, - is a good one. If in that 10 year period Ponting has played 20 more Tests then that is worth pointing out. That's an extra 2 tests per year for 10 years.

EDIT: it depends which peak you want to pick from the ones the OP posted for the 10 year period. There is one where Sachin's 10 year period is 30 less tests than Ponting's.

 

[Shri]

Stop being dramatic.

 

[four_or_six]

Let's try to keep it calm and civil, guys, without resorting to insults.

 

[aussie]

It certainly does when you take into account the fact he played all those good attacks and did wonderfully against them, as a kid- that sample is enough. Ponting's simply the best player of pace in the last 2 decades. FTR, I was talking about SA, WI, Aus and Pak.

Also, it's not like Tendulkar covered himself in glory in the 90s against the best attacks. It was mixed success and his average is largely due to beating the lesser likes to a pulp. I fail to see how that matters whether it is in the 90s or 00s.

Furthermore, Tendulkar himself played in the era where Ponting had his 10 year peak and couldn't touch him. Had their two careers been in separate eras altogether I'd be more inclined to take notice of that argument.

Last i checked Tendy did cover himself with glory againts the best attacks home & away in the 90s. Scroing hundreds againts or averaging 40+ in series againts all those top attacks.

Plus the only reason Tendy couldn't touch Ponting during Punter Headingley 2001 - Ashes 09 peak. Is because for the majority of the 2000s era, Tendy was in decline & was affected by his tennis elbow woes.

Tendy revival since the 07/08 AUS is just as good if not better than his first peak from 1990-2002. Which is better than Ponting's peak.

 

[Ikki]

Last i checked Tendy did cover himself with glory againts the best attacks home & away in the 90s. Scroing hundreds againts or averaging 40+ in series againts all those top attacks.

Plus the only reason Tendy couldn't touch Ponting during Punter Headingley 2001 - Ashes 09 peak. Is because for the majority of the 2000s era, Tendy was in decline & was affected by his tennis elbow woes.

Tendy revival since the 07/08 AUS is just as good if not better than his first peak from 1990-2002. Which is better than Ponting's peak.

His record until the 00s against SA and Pakistan were poor. Not sure how you could have missed that one. In fact, in the 12 series he played against those attacks he averages less than 40 in 6 of them.

For the majority of the 00s Tendulkar had a Tennis elbow? Maybe for 1-2 years tops. The rest of the decade still exist. I also wonder how the tennis elbow comes into play in Tests yet he was still scoring highly in ODIs in the same time.

 

[Shri]

Hope Sachin hits the 60 avg mark before he retires. Has got it up to 57 from 56 in this series.

 

[Slifer]

Last i checked Tendy did cover himself with glory againts the best attacks home & away in the 90s. Scroing hundreds againts or averaging 40+ in series againts all those top attacks.

Plus the only reason Tendy couldn't touch Ponting during Punter Headingley 2001 - Ashes 09 peak. Is because for the majority of the 2000s era, Tendy was in decline & was affected by his tennis elbow woes.

Tendy revival since the 07/08 AUS is just as good if not better than his first peak from 1990-2002. Which is better than Ponting's peak.

Didnt want to get into this argument but just checked myself to see the stats. Seems as if Tendy only averaged 40+ in one series each vs Pak, RSA and WI. Twice 40+ vs Aus (with Mcwarne) but surprisingly overall he only averaged 30 odd vs 3 of the 4 attacks. He averaged 57 vs the WI with Walsh and Amby. Ponting fwiw averaged 40+ s all those attacks although from a smaller sample size but still. I guess the two are closer than I ever realised

 

[vcs]

Didnt want to get into this argument but just checked myself to see the stats. Seems as if Tendy only averaged 40+ in one series each vs Pak, RSA and WI. Twice 40+ vs Aus (with Mcwarne) but surprisingly overall he only averaged 30 odd vs 3 of the 4 attacks. He averaged 57 vs the WI with Walsh and Amby. Ponting fwiw averaged 40+ s all those attacks although from a smaller sample size but still. I guess the two are closer than I ever realised

Averaged 67 vs. WI at home in '94 and 57.80 away in '96-97. Just wanted to correct that.

As for this discussion, I've seen it about a million times and it's going to end up going nowhere. Again.

 

[kingjulian]

It certainly does when you take into account the fact he played all those good attacks and did wonderfully against them, as a kid- that sample is enough. Ponting's simply the best player of pace in the last 2 decades. FTR, I was talking about SA, WI, Aus and Pak.

That is an opinion. You are within your right to have it. But, i base mine on this - the stat for each of them from 1995 to 2000 against SA, WI, AUS, Eng and PAK.

link

Also, it's not like Tendulkar covered himself in glory in the 90s against the best attacks. It was mixed success and his average is largely due to beating the lesser likes to a pulp. I fail to see how that matters whether it is in the 90s or 00s.

That is bullsh!t. The lesser likes who were beaten pulp happens to be bowlers like Aussie, English, West-Indian attack who had the likes of McGrath, Walsh etc. He averaged slightly less than 40 against SA in the 90s. He played next to no tests against Pakistan. So you would base your entire opinion on the fact that Ponting played 3 tests in the 90s against SA at home and managed to Average more than Sachin?

Furthermore, Tendulkar himself played in the era where Ponting had his 10 year peak and couldn't touch him. Had their two careers been in separate eras altogether I'd be more inclined to take notice of that argument.

During Ponting's career, Tendulkar averages significantly more.
link

If you are going to only take a selective 10 year period from 1999 to 2008.
link
Ponting averages 61 Tendulkar averages 54.

If you consider from 1999 to 2010...guess who averages more?
link

So actually Tendulkar with Tennis Elbow, has been able to match and exceed Ponting's average from 1999 to date.....you are right...he couldn't touch him.

 

[Slifer]

I know that but the argument was vs a great attack and Ambrose didnt play in the series in India (he was injured). Walsh, Cuffy and some other no names played in India in '94

 

[aussie]

His record until the 00s against SA and Pakistan were poor. Not sure how you could have missed that one.

For the majority of the 00s Tendulkar had a Tennis elbow? Maybe for 1-2 years tops. The rest of the decade still exist. I also wonder how the tennis elbow comes into play in Tests yet he was still scoring highly in ODIs in the same time.

Tendy record vs SA in the 90s is interesting.

Young Tendy in 92/93 in SA averaged a commendable 35. Then when he came back in 96/97 averaged 40. Which is the improvement great players show & showed his great versality away from home.

Coincidentally though the two series he played againts top SA attacks @ home in 96/97 & 99/00 he was captain. Which i have always taken as just a coincidence since Tendy averages more than 50+ as skipper.

Vs Pak on his debut in 1989 he didn't peak yet. So thats not a situation of Tendy @ his peak vs PAK bowlers @ their peak. When he was @ his peak in that famous 99/00 vs PAK he averaged 40 in that 2 test series.

That tennis elbow injury started from the end of 2003 & bothered him up until 2007. But the decline statred vs Windies 2002 when Pedro Collins troubled Tendy. So between Bridgetown 2002 - Kolkotta it was combination of decline in form from his 1992-2002 1st peak & problems with his tennis-elbow injury that affected his test match batting.

 

[vcs]

I know that but the argument was vs a great attack and Ambrose didnt play in the series in India (he was injured). Walsh, Cuffy and some other no names played in India in '94

Ah yes, Ambrose didn't play. But it was still a good enough attack to demolish India's batting on a pace-friendly Mohali wicket (Benjamin was the main star IIRC) to level the series, and Tendulkar made a wonderful 85 in the second innings of the first Test at the Wankhede when India were in deep trouble.

 

[Slifer]

Yeah it was, but i was more impressed in the 97 series when we had a fading but still good Ian Bishop as well. Take nothing away from the little master he is probably the best batsman of our times but Ponting is certainly right there in the argument with him.

 

[Slifer]

Tendy record vs SA in the 90s is interesting.

Young Tendy in 92/93 in SA averaged a commendable 35. Then when he came back in 96/97 averaged 40. Which is the improvement great players show & showed his great versality away from.

Coincidentally though the two series he played againts top SA attacks @ home in 96/97 & 99/00 he was captain. Which i have always taken as just a coincidence since Tendy averages more than 50+ as skipper.

Vs Pak on his debut in 1989 he didn't peak yet. So thats not a situation of Tendy @ his peak vs PAK bowlers @ their peak. When he was @ his peak in that famous 99/00 vs PAK he averaged 40 in that 2 test series.

That tennis elbow injury started from the end of 2003 & bothered him up until 2007. But the decline statred vs Windies 2002 when Pedro Collins troubled Tendy. So between Bridgetown 2002 - Kolkotta it was combination of decline in form from his 1992-2002 1st peak & problems with his tennis-elbow injury that affected his test match batting.

Thats only going to make Ikki's argument look more convincing sicne a young Poting actually did better. Just my take on this situation

 

[ankitj]

In those 3 matches against Pak, Sachin was not dismissed by Wasim/Waqar even once. Saqlain got him on 3 occassions, Akhtar once, Mushtaq once and one run out. So that series can hardly be taken as evidence for poor performance against pace. Those days he was always looking to take Saqlain on, in tests and ODIs

Averages for such small samples are going to be too sensitive to extremes. What's important is that he scored one of his best innings in that same series.

 

[Ikki]

That is bullsh!t. The lesser likes who were beaten pulp happens to be bowlers like Aussie, English, West-Indian attack who had the likes of McGrath, Walsh etc. He averaged slightly less than 40 against SA in the 90s. He played next to no tests against Pakistan. So you would base your entire opinion on the fact that Ponting played 3 tests in the 90s against SA at home and managed to Average more than Sachin?

No, it's simply a fact. We are taking a 10 year period where he is averaging 60+. The highest he averages against the top attacks was 62 against the WIndies IIRC. The rest of the attacks were below that. So that average was accumulated in spite of the great attacks, not because of them.

But that's not to put down Tendulkar. Ponting's high average is also based on beating the lesser likes, but in the 00s. For me, that distinction means there is not much difference between their averages and it doesn't need pointing out that the 90s had some better attacks.

During Ponting's career, Tendulkar averages significantly more.
link

If you are going to only take a selective 10 year period from 1999 to 2008.
link
Ponting averages 61 Tendulkar averages 54.

If you consider from 1999 to 2010...guess who averages more?
link

So actually Tendulkar with Tennis Elbow, has been able to match and exceed Ponting's average from 1999 to date.....you are right...he couldn't touch him.

The stats above include Tendulkar's padding of Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. As I said to the other poster, neither Dravid, Kallis, Yousuf or Tendulkar touch Ponting in the 00s when removing those stats. Tendulkar doesn't even average 50 in the 00s when you remove B/Z and is 10 points behind Ponting.

And in terms of merely looking at the point where Ponting started, they're practically dead level when you remove minnows bar one important fact: Tendulkar was already established in that period and Ponting too a few years to get into his own; otherwise on that count Ponting is ahead. You don't have to regard these points but clearly while they've been playing cricket in the same time as each other Ponting has been just as good as Tendulkar, if not better.

For your interest; in the 00s without B/Z; minimum of 25 matches played.

 

[Slifer]

Ah yes, Ambrose didn't play. But it was still a good enough attack to demolish India's batting on a pace-friendly Mohali wicket (Benjamin was the main star IIRC) to level the series, and Tendulkar made a wonderful 85 in the second innings of the first Test at the Wankhede when India were in deep trouble.

I remember that series very fondly. I followed most of it via radio. Most of us in the WI had many a sleepless night over the prospect of WI losing a series for the 1st time in years. I think Adams was goin through a purple patch at the time and Lara was brought down to earth for the 1st time in a while.Tactically i think Walsh distinguihsed himself by sending lara in the 3rd test to open and he blasted his way to 91 and should have been a hundred had lara not walked when the umpire gave him not out .

 

[aussie]

Thats only going to make Ikki's argument look more convincing sicne a young Poting actually did better. Just my take on this situation

Well yes. But its not as if a young Ponting Brisbane 96 - Trent Bridge 2001 was ever considered a complete batsman yet or comparable to Tendy in the 90s. All that 97/98 runs he scored vs Donald/Pollock was one of the ealry signs of his ability, that he would later fullfill in the 2000s era.

 

[Slifer]

No, it's simply a fact. We are taking a 10 year period where he is averaging 60+. The highest he averages against the top attacks was 62 against the WIndies IIRC. The rest of the attacks were below that. So that average was accumulated in spite of the great attacks, not because of them.

But that's not to put down Tendulkar. Ponting's high average is also based on beating the lesser likes, but in the 00s. For me, that distinction means there is not much difference between their averages and it doesn't need pointing out that the 90s had some better attacks.





The stats above include Tendulkar's padding of Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. As I said to the other poster, neither Dravid, Kallis, Yousuf or Tendulkar touch Ponting in the 00s when removing those stats. Tendulkar doesn't even average 50 in the 00s when you remove B/Z and is 10 points behind Ponting.

And in terms of merely looking at the point where Ponting started, they're practically dead level when you remove minnows bar one important fact: Tendulkar was already established in that period and Ponting too a few years to get into his own; otherwise on that count Ponting is ahead. You don't have to regard these points but clearly while they've been playing cricket in the same time as each other Ponting has been just as good as Tendulkar, if not better.

For your interest; in the 00s without B/Z; minimum of 25 matches played.

Really ??!!!