***Official*** Tendulkar vs Ponting Thread

[akilana]

Is there a picture of the Ponting-Tendulkar moment after the match available anywhere? This thread needs some love () instead of pointless willy-waving.

what happened?

 

[kingjulian]

STOP THE PRESSES: Ponting didn't have to face McWarne in Tests.

It's not just about those two guys.

Out of curiosity, why did you choose to eliminate the rest of my post from the quoted text? It'd didn't suit your comedy agenda?

 

[vcs]

what happened?

Congratulations and smiles all around.

 

[G.I.Joe]

what happened?

Use your imagination

 

[marc71178]

It's not just about those two guys.

Out of curiosity, why did you choose to eliminate the rest of my post from the quoted text? It'd didn't suit your comedy agenda?

Because the basis behind your analysis is distinctly flawed - it's bound to boost others relatively when to get to a set of common bowlers you remove McWarne for Ponting, but the likes of a fading Ambrose/Walsh followed by Fidel Edwards for Lara or the likes of Agarkar for Tendulkar.

 

[kingjulian]

Because the basis behind your analysis is distinctly flawed - it's bound to boost others relatively when to get to a set of common bowlers you remove McWarne for Ponting, but the likes of a fading Ambrose/Walsh followed by Fidel Edwards for Lara or the likes of Agarkar for Tendulkar.

Eh? That is how it is. I didn't remove it purposely to make a convoluted point. These are the bowlers each batsmen faced. It so happens Ponting faced a set of bowler whose cumulative career overall figures are slightly poorer than those faced by Lara and Tendulkar. But since their batting numbers are comparable and quite neck and neck, i use the quality of bowlers they faced to differentiate further.

I am really struggling here to see your point? What exactly is your argument?

There is no difference in quality of bowlers faced by these guys?

and fading Ambrose/Walsh? Seriously?

 

[JBH001]

You also have to factor in, with regard to the thread in general, the effect and guiding role Tendulkar has taken on himself with younger batsmen over the last few years. I've been seeing a lot more of it in recent tests, and again (from reports) in the most recent test where Pujara is concerned.

 

[marc71178]

I would also consider the volume of games played as I feel that makes a huge difference - maintaining a similar average over nearly 50% more games in the same timespan is a lot harder.

 

[vcs]

TBF Ponting captains his side, so he's certainly doing his bit for the upcoming youngsters.

 

[kingjulian]

I would also consider the volume of games played as I feel that makes a huge difference - maintaining a similar average over nearly 50% more games in the same timespan is a lot harder.

Ya but the others were not relaxing in a beach.

They had ODI cricket etc. I think the calendar was just as busy for each of these players. Test cricket was not the only form of cricket that was played.

 

[ankitj]

I don't consider the 10 year thing a very good analysis but TBF the "better bowling" argument is crap once you look into how Ponting did against the best attack of the 90s, and still as a newcomer. And his peak years he was a way in front of the batsmen you named once you remove Bangladesh and Zimbabwe (whom they played heaps and he hardly any).

Let me first get one thing out of my way. I don't want to be treated as a blind fanboy in any such discussions. I have tremendous respect for Ponting and what he achieved over last decade. At one time when Tendulkar was going through a bad patch, I was starting to think if Ponting should be regarded as a better test batsmen.

Not sure which one you mean was the best attack of 90's. To me, Pak, Aus, SA, WI were all more or less similar. And when you consider India's strength at home, they should be regarded as a good bowling unit too. However I looked at opposition wise breakup of Ponting's averages and deduce that you meant Pak as the best attack of 90's. But he has played just 4 matches. In 6 of those innings he scored one hundred which pushed up his average but he also got 3 ducks! Here is innings wise breakup against Pak in 90's. So that doesn't really change anything for Ponting in 90's.

Performance in 90's wasn't anyway what I was considering. I was looking at Ponting's 2000's and Tendulkar's 90's. Ponting's peak was like a dream too and my arguments should not be construed as taking credit away from Ponting. Just that Tendulkar's seems no less either.

 

[marc71178]

Ya but the others were not relaxing in a beach.

They had ODI cricket etc. I think the calendar was just as busy for each of these players. Test cricket was not the only form of cricket that was played.

Yes, and Ricky also happens to have played a hell of a lot of them as well - in fact looking at some of those numbers shown, as many if not more than Tendulkar in relevant periods.

 

[vcs]

I'd loved to have seen Tendulkar get the opportunity to play more Test cricket in the mid-to-late '90s. I reckon he'd have left us with a lot more memories doing stuff similar to what Sehwag does these days.

Back then, I was crazy about ODIs though.

 

[marc71178]

Yeah, the problem is, you don't actually know if people would maintain things where they to have a lot more games to play.

It's something I've wondered about a number of the other current batsmen with such good records (in particular the likes of Sangakkara, de Villiers, Amla and Jayawardene) - look at their year by year records and almost without exception the years where they have a heavier programmes their averages are at their lowest.

 

[ankitj]

List of all bowlers Lara's team faced when Lara was playing.

List of all bowlers Tendulkar's team faced when Tendulkar was playing

List of all bowlers Ponting's team faced when Ponting was playing
*The average here is average against their team, i think. Not overall average.

The cumulative average of all bowlers, who at least bowled 50 overs against their team, that these guys faced,

Bowlers against Lara's team: 35.99 (Number of bowlers who qualified under this criteria is 97)
Bowlers against Tendulkar's team: 44.69 (Number of bowlers who qualified under this criteria 146)
Bowlers against Ponting's team: 51.44 (Number of bowlers who qualified under this criteria 125)

Did you calculate those averages only for matches involving those 3 batsmen? If so, then understandably, averages of bowlers against Ponting would be worst because the entire Australian batting was flattening those bowlers. Much less so in case of Lara.

 

[kingjulian]

Yes, and Ricky also happens to have played a hell of a lot of them as well - in fact looking at some of those numbers shown, as many if not more than Tendulkar in relevant periods.

I call bull**** on that....

tests

ODIs

From Ponting's debut - they have played similar number of games. No body has an advantage here...

If it was possible BCCI would have these guys slave for 365 days in a year. Their calendar is just as packed as any other Cricket team's in the world.

 

[vcs]

The problem with analyzing Jayawardene and Sangakkara's records is that they play such a high percentage of their cricket at home (and in the subcontinent). I wish they played more and longer series outside the subcontinent.

 

[Ikki]

Let me first get one thing out of my way. I don't want to be treated as a blind fanboy in any such discussions. I have tremendous respect for Ponting and what he achieved over last decade. At one time when Tendulkar was going through a bad patch, I was starting to think if Ponting should be regarded as a better test batsmen.

Not sure which one you mean was the best attack of 90's. To me, Pak, Aus, SA, WI were all more or less similar. And when you consider India's strength at home, they should be regarded as a good bowling unit too. However I looked at opposition wise breakup of Ponting's averages and deduce that you meant Pak as the best attack of 90's. But he has played just 4 matches. In 6 of those innings he scored one hundred which pushed up his average but he also got 3 ducks! Here is innings wise breakup against Pak in 90's. So that doesn't really change anything for Ponting in 90's.

Performance in 90's wasn't anyway what I was considering. I was looking at Ponting's 2000's and Tendulkar's 90's. Ponting's peak was like a dream too and my arguments should not be construed as taking credit away from Ponting. Just that Tendulkar's seems no less either.

It certainly does when you take into account the fact he played all those good attacks and did wonderfully against them, as a kid- that sample is enough. Ponting's simply the best player of pace in the last 2 decades. FTR, I was talking about SA, WI, Aus and Pak.

Also, it's not like Tendulkar covered himself in glory in the 90s against the best attacks. It was mixed success and his average is largely due to beating the lesser likes to a pulp. I fail to see how that matters whether it is in the 90s or 00s.

Furthermore, Tendulkar himself played in the era where Ponting had his 10 year peak and couldn't touch him. Had their two careers been in separate eras altogether I'd be more inclined to take notice of that argument.

 

[marc71178]

I call bull**** on that....

tests

ODIs

From Ponting's debut - they have played similar number of games. No body has an advantage here....

That's still a considerable difference in Tests, and I was actually talking about the 10 year periods shown where Ponting maintained a similar average when playing more than 20 more matches.

I must admit I didn't look to see the exact same periods for ODIs but seeing as one of the ODI periods highlighted shows Ponting playing 50 more games and 8 years overlap with that of his Test spell I can't imagine there's a huge drop in number of appearances.

 

[kingjulian]

That's still a considerable difference in Tests, and I was actually talking about the 10 year periods shown where Ponting maintained a similar average when playing more than 20 more matches.

I must admit I didn't look to see the exact same periods for ODIs but seeing as one of the ODI periods highlighted shows Ponting playing 50 more games and 8 years overlap with that of his Test spell I can't imagine there's a huge drop in number of appearances.

12 test matches in 15 years is considerable difference?

Tendulkar can be criticized on many things, but one thing he cannot be criticized on, with-out coming across as a ginormous idiot, is the volume of Cricket he has played. You are doing a good job of this.

He has played as much Cricket as was competitively and humanly possible for anyone.

I think i'm not going to debate this anymore....come-****ing-on......