***Official*** Tendulkar vs Ponting Thread

[bagapath]

WAG Sachin is !!! terrific, terrific batting display from him in this series. Ricky's class was also evident for everyone to see. It is such a pity neither team had a world class bowling attack. in fact, if a world XI were to be chosen right now, it would have the weakest bowling attack of all such teams from previous years; pathetic bowling resources around the world, really.

Sanz and HB! Fingers crossed for it to happen!!!

 

[Matt79]

In the past six months, it's moved from being pretty line ball to Tendulkar definitely being ahead of Ponting overall IMO. Who would I take at their peak? Both, or either without any regrets if I could only have one. Sachin is amazing. Definitely the number 4 in my all-time XI now as well, whereas previously he was fighting it out with Hammond for that spot.

 

[Spark]

If we call this Tendulkar's peak then it's challenging Ponting's for mine. All it needs for it to be above is a good SA series.

 

[Ikki]

Yeah, this is a disgustingly good peak.

Still, I am not writing off Ponting yet. He's got this steely determination that makes me think he'll have the last laugh yet.

 

[biased indian]

Looks like ponting is going to have wonderful Ashes series with Bat ..unless the captaincy comes in the way..he did look in great touch in the India series

 

[honestbharani]

Amit ?

Nah.. the boss..

 

[weldone]

Yeah, this is a disgustingly good peak.

Still, I am not writing off Ponting yet. He's got this steely determination that makes me think he'll have the last laugh yet.

I guess his last years will be like Viv's. He doesn't want to give up any of his shots, wants to be equally dominating like he was in his prime. Reminds me of things that I witnessed in the late '80 and early '90.

...entertained me in this series, though...

 

[bagapath]

After I got married, the pretty girls in our neighborhood got more comfortable with me and started flashing a friendlier smile whenever I passed them; simply because, they knew that I was domesticated by marriage and I would not try anything silly with them. Likewise, I have softened a little bit towards Ponting of late because I know he is truly and thoroughly beaten by Sachin in their personal race. I don't see him as a threat to Sachin's records anymore - he was never a threat to his stature, anyway. So I am able to appreciate his game a lot better these days.

 

[Prince EWS]

After I got married, the pretty girls in our neighborhood got more comfortable with me and started flashing a friendlier smile whenever I passed them; simply because, they knew that I was domesticated by marriage and I would not try anything silly with them. Likewise, I have softened a little bit towards Ponting of late because I know he is truly and thoroughly beaten by Sachin in their personal race. I don't see him as a threat to Sachin's records anymore - he was a never a threat to his stature, anyway. So I am able to appreciate his game a lot better these days.

Haha this is such a patronising post.

 

[Teja.]

After I got married, the pretty girls in our neighborhood got more comfortable with me and started flashing a friendlier smile whenever I passed them; simply because, they knew that I was domesticated by marriage and I would not try anything silly with them. Likewise, I have softened a little bit towards Ponting of late because I know he is truly and thoroughly beaten by Sachin in their personal race. I don't see him as a threat to Sachin's records anymore - he was a never a threat to his stature, anyway. So I am able to appreciate his game a lot better these days.

Always love your analogies.

 

[Ikki]

Something tells me Ponting has it in his mind to actually stay long enough to overtake Tendulkar's records. I remember in the pre-series interviews they talked about it and it was noted that he just smirked and said he didn't think Tendulkar would play on till now.

 

[ankitj]

That comparison of peak 10 years puts Tendulkar comfortably ahead of Ponting once you take into account the quality of bowling the two faced during their respective peaks. Tendulkar's batting average was about 5 points clear of the second best (given a cutoff of reasonable number of runs) in 1990's. See this. Ponting however was quite closely chased by Dravid, Kallis, Yusuf etc in his peak years.

If you consider performances in 4th innings, Ponting would probably cover some ground.

In ODIs though, the gulf is too big. After Viv and Tedulkar, there is broad day light before the 3rd best, and that may not necessarily be Ponting. Apart from ATGs Kallis and Lara, some ODI specialists like Zaheer Abbas, Michael Bevan, Dean Jones etc are also good candidates to be regarded as the 3rd best ODI batsman.

 

[Ikki]

That comparison of peak 10 years put Tendulkar comfortably ahead of Ponting once you take into account the quality of bowling the two faced during their respective peaks. Tendulkar's batting average was about 5 points clear of the second best (given a reasonable number of runs) in 1990's. See this. Ponting however was quite closely chased by Dravid, Kallis, Yusuf etc in his peak years.

If you consider performances in 4th innings, Ponting would probably cover some ground.

In ODIs though, the gulf is too big. After Viv and Tedulkar, there is broad day light before the 3rd best, and that may not necessarily be Ponting. Apart from ATGs Kallis and Lara, and some ODI specialists like Zaheer Abbas, Michael Bevan, Dean Jones etc are good candidates to be regarded as the 3rd best ODI batsman.

I don't consider the 10 year thing a very good analysis but TBF the "better bowling" argument is crap once you look into how Ponting did against the best attack of the 90s, and still as a newcomer. And his peak years he was a way in front of the batsmen you named once you remove Bangladesh and Zimbabwe (whom they played heaps and he hardly any).

 

[vcs]

Is there a picture of the Ponting-Tendulkar moment after the match available anywhere? This thread needs some love () instead of pointless willy-waving.

 

[kingjulian]

*Tedious post alert*

I usually hate statistics such as batting averages, runs scored etc and comparing them against a batsman who played in another team or even worse in another era altogether.

But yet statistics remain the only means to compare. In an effort to introduce some fairness to the numbers such as average and runs scored - i thought it would be better to compare the quality of the bowlers they faced.

I may be getting this completely wrong. Correct me if i'm wrong.

List of all bowlers Lara's team faced when Lara was playing.

List of all bowlers Tendulkar's team faced when Tendulkar was playing

List of all bowlers Ponting's team faced when Ponting was playing
*The average here is average against their team, i think. Not overall average.

The cumulative average of all bowlers, who at least bowled 50 overs against their team, that these guys faced,

Bowlers against Lara's team: 35.99 (Number of bowlers who qualified under this criteria is 97)
Bowlers against Tendulkar's team: 44.69 (Number of bowlers who qualified under this criteria 146)
Bowlers against Ponting's team: 51.44 (Number of bowlers who qualified under this criteria 125)

Filtering furhter down, i wanted to only consider the top echelon of these bowlers. So i the 50 bowlers with the best average against respective teams when these stalwarts played for them.

Top 50 bowlers in terms of average only
against Lara's team : 24.14
against Tendulkar's team : 25.62
against Ponting's team : 33.48

The numbers are a bit tighter, but statistically Ponting's team faced easier bowlers. Or conversely Australian team (during Ponting's time) has had enough quality bats that bowlers struggled against Australia. To get a better measure, it would be better to get the overall average of the top 50 bowlers they faced, as opposed to taking the average against their team for the top 50 bowlers they faced. But i don't know how to work that statistic. But the story will not be that much different i think.

I think if we put things in perspective....Lara averaging 50+ was a big deal.

To me from what i have seen and the numbers, it's hard to separate Lara and Tendulkar, but i would put Ponting one rung below them. Because i think some of the best bowlers ever played for his team, as opposed to playing against him. That is a big advantage.

On another note...

Some shocking numbers i saw
Michael Bevan has bowled 76.3 overs against WestIndies and taken 15 wickets at an average of 17.66 !!!!!!!
Chris Cairns has bowled 85 overs against west-indies and taken 17 wickets @ 9.94 runs per wicket !!!!!

 

[Prince EWS]

*Tedious post alert*

I usually hate statistics such as batting averages, runs scored etc and comparing them against a batsman who played in another team or even worse in another era altogether.

But yet statistics remain the only means to compare. In an effort to introduce some fairness to the numbers such as average and runs scored - i thought it would be better to compare the quality of the bowlers they faced.

I may be getting this completely wrong. Correct me if i'm wrong.

List of all bowlers Lara's team faced when Lara was playing.

List of all bowlers Tendulkar's team faced when Tendulkar was playing

List of all bowlers Ponting's team faced when Ponting was playing
*The average here is average against their team, i think. Not overall average.

The cumulative average of all bowlers, who at least bowled 50 overs against their team, that these guys faced,

Bowlers against Lara's team: 35.99 (Number of bowlers who qualified under this criteria is 97)
Bowlers against Tendulkar's team: 44.69 (Number of bowlers who qualified under this criteria 146)
Bowlers against Ponting's team: 51.44 (Number of bowlers who qualified under this criteria 125)

Filtering furhter down, i wanted to only consider the top echelon of these bowlers. So i the 50 bowlers with the best average against respective teams when these stalwarts played for them.

Top 50 bowlers in terms of average only
against Lara's team : 24.14
against Tendulkar's team : 25.62
against Ponting's team : 33.48

The numbers are a bit tighter, but statistically Ponting's team faced easier bowlers. Or conversely Australian team (during Ponting's time) has had enough quality bats that bowlers struggled against Australia. To get a better measure, it would be better to get the overall average of the top 50 bowlers they faced, as opposed to taking the average against their team for the top 50 bowlers they faced. But i don't know how to work that statistic. But the story will not be that much different i think.

I think if we put things in perspective....Lara averaging 50+ was a big deal.

To me from what i have seen and the numbers, it's hard to separate Lara and Tendulkar, but i would put Ponting one rung below them. Because i think some of the best bowlers ever played for his team, as opposed to playing against him. That is a big advantage.

On another note...

Some shocking numbers i saw
Michael Bevan has bowled 76.3 overs against WestIndies and taken 15 wickets at an average of 17.66 !!!!!!!
Chris Cairns has bowled 85 overs against west-indies and taken 17 wickets @ 9.94 runs per wicket !!!!!

All you've really proven there is that Ponting was part of a good batting lineup.

 

[G.I.Joe]

All you've really proven there is that Ponting was part of a good batting lineup.

The post makes sense if we assume Richard's hypothesis of "The bowler controls the game"

 

[Prince EWS]

The post makes sense if we assume Richard's hypothesis of "The bowler controls the game"

Makes this whole thread entirely irrelevant if you do though.

 

[kingjulian]

All you've really proven there is that Ponting was part of a good batting lineup.

Yeah i kinda admitted to it too....in my post.

But the three cricinfo links in my post has the list of all bowlers these guys and their teams faced. If you pick the best 25 or 50 bowlers from each in terms of career overall average, and get their cumilative figures, i'd be willing to wager that Ponting would have still faced the easier lot.

There are two things that are going against him compared to Lara and Tendulkar

1. His peak was in a period when bowler's averaged more (as in poorer)
2. His team also had some of the best bowlers going around in that period.

 

[marc71178]

Yeah i kinda admitted to it too....in my post.

But the three cricinfo links in my post has the list of all bowlers these guys and their teams faced. If you pick the best 25 or 50 bowlers from each in terms of career overall average, and get their cumilative figures, i'd be willing to wager that Ponting would have still faced the easier lot.

STOP THE PRESSES: Ponting didn't have to face McWarne in Tests.