Sobers rates Subash Gupte over Shane Warne

[weldone]

And because reverse sweep is as important a shot for a batsman as googly as a delivery for a legspinner...

 

[weldone]

I don't remember anybody among those who are laughing/are enraged/are accusing Sobers of trolling or being idiotic now showing the same reaction when Bradman rated O'Reilly over Barnes for the same reason...But then again, both Bradman and O'Reilly are Aussies (unlike Sobers and Gupte); don't say a word against them please.

 

[bagapath]

I don't remember anybody among those who are laughing/are enraged/are accusing Sobers of trolling or being idiotic now showing the same reaction when Bradman rated O'Reilly over Barnes for the same reason...But then again, both Bradman and O'Reilly are Aussies (unlike Sobers and Gupte); don't say a word against them please.

this is crap weldone. you can do better than that!

bradman selected a joke of an all time xi with bedser, morris and tallon in it. the team got properly screwed, despite it coming to public knowledge one year after his death. someone even branded it a "not even a mother would like" kind of team.

gupte is on par with kumble and chandra. at best he was as good as benaud. gary unfortunately thinks he has played the greatest leg spinner of all time. he didnt. this is just the typical "cricket was best in my times" disease. sobers is being a typical old man here. warne, oreilly and grimmett are all a plane higher than gupte - with or without googlies.

 

[bagapath]

And because reverse sweep is as important a shot for a batsman as googly as a delivery for a legspinner...

okay, then. malinga bowls better yorkers than hadlee. so he is the better bowler of the two. how does that sound to you?

 

[Sanz]

Ranatunga said it long back:-

In 2005
Warne's over-rated and no role model: Ranatunga - Cricket - Sport - smh.com.au

And in 1997

Q: Frankly, how good a bowler do you think Warne is?
A: I feel he is highly over-rated. He is not bad but all this hype around him is unjustified.

 

[Sanz]

okay, then. malinga bowls better yorkers than hadlee. so he is the better bowler of the two. how does that sound to you?

And Sobers said that ?

 

[aussie]

Warne bowled a googly to get Ntini out in the 2nd test vs. South Africa in 2006 to win them the test match (and series).

Ah yes good shout. I remember this now.

Luckily i also taped that that test & series. I just checked it back that dismissal & it was as good a googly as you can see.

Do you know of anyway one can lift footage from a VHS cassette so that it can be shown here?

 

[aussie]

He may be superior in a technical sense, or had more variety etc - I don't know.

But, in terms of impact on matches, impact on the very pshyche of an opposition, over a very sustained period (which I think is the hallmark of greatness) boy it's hard to see how Warne could be bested as a leg spinner.

TBFto Subhash Gupte. Based on all i read & reserached about him, i think he could have a much better record if he had better bowling support. The fact that he averaged 29 with basically no bowling support for the majority of his career, when IND where poor is outstanding.

 

[weldone]

this is crap weldone. you can do better than that!

bradman selected a joke of an all time xi with bedser, morris and tallon in it. the team got properly screwed, despite it coming to public knowledge one year after his death. someone even branded it a "not even a mother would like" kind of team.

Even you can do better than what you are doing in this thread!

Firstly, from when did being critical to a team selected by someone equate to being critical of a specific comparison made by someone? The comparison between O'Reilly and Barnes by Bradman and the reasoning for that was never laughed at, at least I haven't heard of. Rather that comparison, and Barnes' reply to that has been part of cricket legends. Why can't we take Sobers' comment with equal grace and dignity, even though we don't necessarily agree with it?

 

[aussie]

The problem with that point is that if he had a googly that was worth calling even as "good", let alone what you are claiming, he would and should have used it in India. There was a tour game in 2001 in India and a bloke called Balaji Rao was getting his googly to go a whole LOT better than Warney.. And he only tried 1 or 2 from memory. And trust me, it was NOTHING to speak of. The trajectory gave it away easily and there was no problem for the batters to pick it... And apart from that one googly to Ganguly, I just haven't seen him bowl a decent/good one...

I am not saying only leggies who can bowl a good googly > one who doesn't but given how good Sobers was as a batsman, perhaps he feels he could play a guy without a decent googly easily compared to one who does. Again, just too much defensive mentality around from a number of posters here.. Personally, I don't believe Gupte > Warne but think someone like Sobers thinking so makes me rate Gupte much higher (not higher than Warne but you get the point.) And this is what ratings like these do to the fans... And while I can understand most of you don't agree, it just seems silly that a bunch of guys who never played the game at any level and never even watched one out of the two we are comparing can dismiss the opinion of one who can lay claim to both the aforementioned points... A little humility and perspective never hurts..

There is a lot wrong with this statement & with all due respect sir, i dont think you understand Warne's career or would have seen much of him outside IND vs AUS tests (maybe). Or else you wouldn't be saying things like "apart from that one googly to Ganguly, I just haven't seen him bowl a decent/good one".

To your point about the IND 2001 tour where some local bowler was bowling a bigger wrong un that Warne. Well one thing that needs to be noted is that Warne after his 93-97/98 peak, lost alot of zip in his googly & flipper due to various injuries he had between 97/98 - 2001. Warne never bowled his trademark flipper again after those 4 years for example & later on his career tended to use his slider/straighter ball which did for Ian Bell in 2005 Oval test for example. So it should be no surprise that during that 2001 tour after coming off a year long injury lay-off, during his worst career injury phase if Warne wasn't spinning the googly big if at all.

Also as its been mentioned before. Warne during his first 93-97/98 peak didn't need to bowl the googly (although he certianly had a good one) much as his second variation, because his flipper proved more effective & deadly.

I am fairly certain the first time i ever went to test match here @ Old trafford in 97 on the 5th day. I saw Warne bowl Stewart with a fairly good wrong un:

YouTube - Shane Warne 9/111 Match Figures


Finally you dont need to play the game at any serious level & to be able to critcize a person POV who played the game. If that where the case the likes of John Arlott, Nerville Carduss, CLR James, Harsha Bhogle etc etc wouldn't get much respect. Just because you played the game with great distinction means your a the greatest analyst & historian of it.

 

[Burgey]

I don't see the problem with Sobers' rating any one player over another. Tbh I know so little of Gupte that I find when past greats raise these things it makes for some interesting reading.

If Gupte was as good as or better than Warne, then I'm just sorry I never saw him play.

 

[Sanz]

I am fairly certain the first time i ever went to test match here @ Old trafford in 97 on the 5th day. I saw Warne bowl Stewart with a fairly good wrong un:

YouTube - Shane Warne 9/111 Match Figures

Its is not a Googly. When the ball is released, it appears that he wanted to bowl a goodle, but the end result is not.

And thank you for that video, continues to prove the kind of mediocre English batsmen Warne feasted on through out the 90s.

 

[Sanz]

Finally you dont need to play the game at any serious level & to be able to critcize a person POV who played the game. If that where the case the likes of John Arlott, Nerville Carduss, CLR James, Harsha Bhogle etc etc wouldn't get much respect. Just because you played the game with great distinction means your a the greatest analyst & historian of it.

And I can bet every single dollar I have that the likes of John Arlott, Sir Neville Cardus, CLR James wouldn't have called Sobers an 'idiot' or a 'troll' for having an opinion.

 

[Top_Cat]

And thank you for that video, continues to prove the kind of mediocre English batsmen Warne feasted on through out the 90s.

Reckon that's going a bit too far, tbh. They weren't mediocre batters, they just struggled against blokes like Warne, Kumble and Murali. There's three of the best Test spinners ever right there. If the Saffies or English fell to bits against any joke spinner, fair enough but they didn't.

 

[Sanz]

Reckon that's going a bit too far, tbh. They weren't mediocre batters, they just struggled against blokes like Warne, Kumble and Murali. There's three of the best Test spinners ever right there. If the Saffies or English fell to bits against any joke spinner, fair enough but they didn't.

Actually England struggled against most spinners. Watched them play in india in the early 90s, IMO the worst group of batsman to play any kind of spin.

 

[vcs]

I remember England's tour of India in '93, it was the first Test series I properly followed. They had a very good team with the likes of Gooch, Gatting, Hick, Stewart, Smith etc. but their performance was the worst I've seen from a non-minnow touring team in my lifetime. I actually ended up getting a very inflated opinion of India's competence in Test cricket from that series. That didn't last long, though.

Still wouldn't put Warne's brilliance against them entirely down to inept batting however, as he bowled to them in conditions a lot less conducive to spin, and the fact that he made numerous English batsmen of several generations look equally clueless.

 

[GotSpin]

I don't remember anybody among those who are laughing/are enraged/are accusing Sobers of trolling or being idiotic now showing the same reaction when Bradman rated O'Reilly over Barnes for the same reason...But then again, both Bradman and O'Reilly are Aussies (unlike Sobers and Gupte); don't say a word against them please.

What a joke of a post. Bradman's AT XI was widely criticised - Though I do wonder how much the publisher had an influence on it

 

[GotSpin]

I remember England's tour of India in '93, it was the first Test series I properly followed. They had a very good team with the likes of Gooch, Gatting, Hick, Stewart, Smith etc. but their performance was the worst I've seen from a non-minnow touring team in my lifetime. I actually ended up getting a very inflated opinion of India's competence in Test cricket from that series. That didn't last long, though.

Still wouldn't put Warne's brilliance against them entirely down to inept batting however, as he bowled to them in conditions a lot less conducive to spin, and the fact that he made numerous English batsmen of several generations look equally clueless.

Yeah it's a bit of the old chicken or the egg issue. Were the English batsmen clueless against Warne because he was such a good bowler or because they were just so hopeless against spin generally. Has to be a bit of both doesn't it.

 

[vcs]

Yeah, the thing about Warne is he didn't just do it in one or two series against a particular set of batsmen. When you think of his hold over the Englishmen starting from that ball against Gatting to the fifth day of Adelaide 2006, it lasted a decade and a half.

 

[benchmark00]

I don't see the problem with Sobers' rating any one player over another. Tbh I know so little of Gupte that I find when past greats raise these things it makes for some interesting reading.

If Gupte was as good as or better than Warne, then I'm just sorry I never saw him play.

Good post for such a ****.