*Official* Australia in New Zealand

[WindieWeathers]

You can't just ignore our instruction because you want to explain your side of the story. We don't want to see either side of the story in this thread - it's not what it's for. Continue the cricket side of the discussion if you like but if you keep the character discussion up you'll be having a holiday.

Is there a reason why this post wasn't posted straight after the one i just replied to? to be honest i'm struggling to see where i've even come close breaking any rules, i got called a "troll" and i disputed that, if that's a crime then fair enough i'll bare that in mind in the future.

 

[straw man]

At the risk of incurring Heath's wrath, and as much as I love them, it tells out a lot about Shane Bond and Iain O'Brien who abandoned the team before a very important series. Bond complained about his constant injuries and is now playing IPL, and O'Brien decided to go ahead and move to England. Couldn't they have just got through this series and then gone their seperate ways? O'Brien making a deal with his wife that as soon as the second Test is over he would be on the next plane to London.

Then again maybe he tried and it didn't work.

A few pages ago but agree so much with this. Pakistan and WI both showed recently that this Australian batting lineup is more vulnerable than it has been for the last umpteen years and is slowly mastering the art of the collapse, provided you have someone with that extra class or pace or *something* in your bowling attack. Bond would make that difference, and O'Brien is better backup than most of the other bowlers. What price a chance at the first test match win* against Australia in a depressingly large number or years??

By all means retire immediately after completion of the series, but I would have thought as top cricketers they would have moved heaven and earth to play this series. Actually feel more sympathy for O'Brien than Bond here - for Bond this time it is a clear case of money over country.

* Obv would still require numerous other things to go our way, like putting up scores of 250+ once or twice.

In other news, pleased that Arnel has been relatively impressive on debut.

 

[Athlai]

Is there a reason why this post wasn't posted straight after the one i just replied to? to be honest i'm struggling to see where i've even come close breaking any rules, i got called a "troll" and i disputed that, if that's a crime then fair enough i'll bare that in mind in the future.

WW mate by bringing up your team in a NZ and Australia thread can be seen as trolling. You come off with a very 'my team is better than your team' vibe. Which if NZ was against West Indies right now wouldn't be that big an issue as the on field contest would give you some credit.

But at this stage it's completely irrelevant and a bit annoying. I rate you as a poster but I reckon you should cool your jets.

 

[Bahnz]

Actually feel more sympathy for O'Brien than Bond here - for Bond this time it is a clear case of money over country.

It's easy to slag Bond off for chasing the green. The truth is that a lot of people would've thrown in the towell a lot sooner than Bond did. He's continually struggled with Injury for the past 8 years, and every time returned as skilled and fast as when he left. That shows discipline and dedication to New Zealand cricket. He just finally realised what his body had been telling him for the past decade. That he can't handle 5 day cricket. If he'd played the test series against Oz, injured himself, and missed out on $750,000, money that he probably won't get more than 1 more chance at, then that makes him a prized idiot. I have huge sympathy for Bond, as it was always clear that he genuinely cared about the longer form of the game, given that he continued to play FC cricket after his banning. And if he were 28 or so, I'm sure he'd be dead keen to play. But his career is winding down at this point, and he needs to make the most of what time he's got left.

Ask yourself what you would do, if you were in his shoes. I'd have a very hard time believing you if you're prepared to argue that you'd do any different.

 

[Athlai]

Yeah Bond actually coming back to play at Dunedin really impressed me.

 

[WindieWeathers]

WW mate by bringing up your team in a NZ and Australia thread can be seen as trolling. You come off with a very 'my team is better than your team' vibe. Which if NZ was against West Indies right now wouldn't be that big an issue as the on field contest would give you some credit.

But at this stage it's completely irrelevant and a bit annoying. I rate you as a poster but I reckon you should cool your jets.

It was a joke Athlai!!, nothing more than that but it seems like some people just didn't get it, i already expressed my views about WI vs NZ on another thread a few days ago, anyway it's done now so hopefully this can get back on topic before someone gets banned.

 

[Hurricane]

To be honest, I think an average of 42 at an economy rate 6.1 is pretty poor. His series stats would've been nightmarish if he hadn't finally bowled well in the last game. As for being more of a threat than Tuffey, well it wouldn't be difficult.

Well Tuffey was slightly worse RPO 6.3 and average 50.25

I didn't even calculate Franklin.

So compared with his team mates he was mediocre.

(Not comparing him with Bond or Vettori)

Anyways my goal wasn't to champion Southee - I just think he has improved. Even if he still has a long way to go at least in ODIs.

To argue your side of it Bahnz. He definitely wouldn't get a game for Aussie. And he would struggle to make a lot of teams in the world. In fact I am not sure what teams he would make.

 

[Bahnz]

Well Tuffey was slightly worse RPO 6.3 and average 50.25

I didn't even calculate Franklin.

So compared with his team mates he was mediocre.

(Not comparing him with Bond or Vettori)

Anyways my goal wasn't to champion Southee - I just think he has improved. Even if he still has a long way to go at least in ODIs.

To argue your side of it Bahnz. He definitely wouldn't get a game for Aussie. And he would struggle to make a lot of teams in the world. In fact I am not sure what teams he would make.

Errrmm...Bangladesh?

No doubts he was better than Tuffey, though while Franklin had a slightly higher economy, he also had a better average, so that one's a bit of a toss up. No doubts he didn't bowl that poorly relative to some members of the side, but given that Mills, Butler, Oram and McKay are all out injured, that's kind of to be expected.

He's certainly improved in ODI's since his performances against India last year, when he really got taken to the cleaners, I'm just not sure he's made that much progress since his debut.

 

[straw man]

It's easy to slag Bond off for chasing the green. The truth is that a lot of people would've thrown in the towell a lot sooner than Bond did. He's continually struggled with Injury for the past 8 years, and every time returned as skilled and fast as when he left. That shows discipline and dedication to New Zealand cricket. He just finally realised what his body had been telling him for the past decade. That he can't handle 5 day cricket. If he'd played the test series against Oz, injured himself, and missed out on $750,000, money that he probably won't get more than 1 more chance at, then that makes him a prized idiot. I have huge sympathy for Bond, as it was always clear that he genuinely cared about the longer form of the game, given that he continued to play FC cricket after his banning. And if he were 28 or so, I'm sure he'd be dead keen to play. But his career is winding down at this point, and he needs to make the most of what time he's got left.

Ask yourself what you would do, if you were in his shoes. I'd have a very hard time believing you if you're prepared to argue that you'd do any different.

I agree with most of your post and I do understand Bond's motivations. I've been a supporter of his all through the ICL debacle and numerous injury layoffs. That does not alter the fact that he chose to 'maximise earning potential' rather than play this test series for NZ. Some people get very upset about perceived 'money over country' and see it as wrong, wrong, wrong in every instance. I don't see it as black and white like that and yes, this series would have been a very high injury and therefore monetary risk to take. But there must have been a part of him that thought "**** it, I just want to play". He would know what a big difference he makes to this team and also that without him as a spearhead our bowlers would struggle... badly.

Clearly I don't know the inner workings of Bond's mind (and close family/ confidantes) or for that matter his financial position (though I doubt the ICL paid him what was owed). I suppose he would also justify it by saying he's prolonging his ODI career by not taking this injury risk. But if the IPL didn't exist would he be playing this series? Hell yes, IMO.

 

[cbuts]

Nice one, with that radio link at least I can listen to the action. Can't believe it's not being shown on Sky Sports here in the UK. Would be nice to be settling down to a bit of live Test action on the TV about now, but the radio's not a bad substitute.

Sounds like a typical Hughes loose shot (based on Tests so far) outside off early on after a flurry of boundaries. Big early boost for Arnel.

you can watch ball by ball commentary on cricinfo.com

 

[straw man]

Ask yourself what you would do, if you were in his shoes. I'd have a very hard time believing you if you're prepared to argue that you'd do any different.

For what little it's worth, if i was in Bond's position this would be a financial decision and would depend on current financial status. If I had $0 in the bank and a big mortgage then I'd do exactly what Bond has. If the ICL had come through with an odd million from the money they owed him then I think I'd play this series.

Somewhere in between and it's shades of grey. But Bond's a smart guy - it's not like he's going to have no earning potential after he retires from cricket.

 

[cbuts]

At the risk of incurring Heath's wrath, and as much as I love them, it tells out a lot about Shane Bond and Iain O'Brien who abandoned the team before a very important series. Bond complained about his constant injuries and is now playing IPL, and O'Brien decided to go ahead and move to England. Couldn't they have just got through this series and then gone their seperate ways? O'Brien making a deal with his wife that as soon as the second Test is over he would be on the next plane to London.

Then again maybe he tried and it didn't work.

yea not much difference between a test match (bowling 20 in a day) to a 2020 match, bowling 4. Bond would of broken down halfway through the first test anyway.

Obrien - yea he is a ****

 

[Bahnz]

I agree with most of your post and I do understand Bond's motivations. I've been a supporter of his all through the ICL debacle and numerous injury layoffs. That does not alter the fact that he chose to 'maximise earning potential' rather than play this test series for NZ. Some people get very upset about perceived 'money over country' and see it as wrong, wrong, wrong in every instance. I don't see it as black and white like that and yes, this series would have been a very high injury and therefore monetary risk to take. But there must have been a part of him that thought "**** it, I just want to play". He would know what a big difference he makes to this team and also that without him as a spearhead our bowlers would struggle... badly.

Clearly I don't know the inner workings of Bond's mind (and close family/ confidantes) or for that matter his financial position (though I doubt the ICL paid him what was owed). I suppose he would also justify it by saying he's prolonging his ODI career by not taking this injury risk. But if the IPL didn't exist would he be playing this series? Hell yes, IMO.

There are lots of ifs that spin out of that question. If the IPL didn't exist, would he still have been banned for playing in the ICL? If not, would he have continued playing test cricket for this long? If he had, would he have continued to injure himself? If so, would he have retired from test cricket a couple of years ago anyway?

It's all hypothetical anyway. I'm sure Bond is aware of what a difference he could make to this series, and I'm sure he probably felt like crap when he woke up this morning and saw the scorecard. Nonetheless, given the stage of his career that he's at, and all he's done for New Zealand cricket over the last decade, there's no doubt in my mind that he's perfectly justified in joining the IPL. It sucks to be sure, but I'd never blame him for it.

 

[Meridio]

Re: Southee, IMO coaching is definitely a major factor in him swinging it less than he used to. There is a far higher emphasis on bowling into the pitch and trying to extract seam movement and bounce than swinging the ball from coaches nowadays, in my experience anyway. About five years ago, was told a story from one of my age-group coaches about being in the NZ Academy. He said they were basically told to forget about trying to swing it, and that the only way to get batsmen out was to bowl into the pitch.

It's a shame, IMO. Think we're becoming a bit obsessed with hitting the splice, and are forgetting what swing can do.

 

[andyc]

you can watch ball by ball commentary on cricinfo.com

Cbuts, please don't post illegal links on the forum. Have edited your post (ie. it wasn't cricinfo before).

yea not much difference between a test match (bowling 20 in a day) to a 2020 match, bowling 4. Bond would of broken down halfway through the first test anyway.

Obrien - yea he is a ****

And please don't avoid the filter either. If you're going to swear just let the filter take care of it.

 

[Craig]

BTW going to the game on Sunday. Will probably get to see New Zealand bat. Don't really want to see Mcintosh blocking it out and doing his thing. But looking forward to seeing Watling and company.

Good times.

Should bat like he did not so long ago for Auckland when he scored at a strike rate of 85. Obviously I'm really just an outsider, but looking from the outside in, he seems like the type who will score quickly or score very slowly, nothing in between.

 

[Bahnz]

Re: Southee, IMO coaching is definitely a major factor in him swinging it less than he used to. There is a far higher emphasis on bowling into the pitch and trying to extract seam movement and bounce than swinging the ball from coaches nowadays, in my experience anyway. About five years ago, was told a story from one of my age-group coaches about being in the NZ Academy. He said they were basically told to forget about trying to swing it, and that the only way to get batsmen out was to bowl into the pitch.

It's a shame, IMO. Think we're becoming a bit obsessed with hitting the splice, and are forgetting what swing can do.

That's really worrying, although admittedly it's not the first horror story to emerge from the NZ academy over the past few years.

 

[Flem274*]

"Brent Arnel doesn't have back problems, just needs to harden up" is my fave horror story.

 

[James]

And given that we apparently aren't allowed to produce greentops in New Zealand anymore, he's gonna need to show something different if he's to be a long term success.

Agree with this completely. Not sure why we don't produce green seaming wickets anymore.

Would love to see the 2nd Test played on a seaming mine-field. Gives us the best chance of Aussies over for not many. On flat pitches like the Basin, the Aussies are going to make 500+ everytime with their batting lineup.

 

[Pratters]

Yeah, agreed.