Maximus0723
State Regular
Just to reiterate Sanz avatar...
-
Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
Richards v Tendulkar - ODIs
- Thread starter Pratters
- Start date
JBH001
International Regular
On the derailed thread topic, I dont know what zinzan (and uppercut) were hoping to achieve by mentioning voting patterns and bias and the like. Even if the observation is just what they say it is, merely an observation, it seems a rather redundant point to make. So I dont know what its all about. Too much poking sticks, intentional or otherwise, at Indian voters and Indian members on CW - been happening generally a bit too much of late too, IMO.
I have been a passive on-looker on this site for about two years now. Its only now that I registered and am making my first post.
This debate is in my mind completely out-of-question for IMO Richards was, is and will stay the Bradman of ODIs. The fact that he averaged close to 50 with a sr of over 90 in an era of the fastest, most dangerous, and intimidating bowlers ever, on the fastest, bounciest, and most difficult pitches ever, without even a helmet, when bowlers could do a lot more (any no of bouncers an over, balls down the leg-side, no fielding restrictions for even a delivery etc) is more than enough for me. Also boundaries were bigger, and bats were of inferior quality.
Several analysis have been done by Wisden, ICC etc. One by a longtime cricket-pundit (forget his name) multiplied average by strike-rate and took that as the final figure. EVERY such analysis had the King comfortably at 1. Wisden had SRT at 2, ICC had him at 12 (which is what I think he deserves), the third analysis had him at 7. Guys in between were deserving names - Chappell, Jones, Abbas etc.
Anyway, biased SRT fans here have always indulged in name-dropping. The four greatest fast bowlers ever according to most are Lillee, Marshall, Imran and Hadlee (in no particular order). Now three of those were pure Richards opponents; one his team-mate. Add to this what I feel is the MOST important factor - batsmen in the 70s and 80s had to fear for their limb and life and THEN keep their wickets intact and score their runs. In the 90s they no longer feared for their limb and life (protective gear from head to toe, restrictions on bowlers, better pitches, decline in fast bowling etc) and this last decade has been just cruel to fast bowlers with power-play, T20s etc.
Conditions completely ignored, I did some statistical filtering in Cricinfo for the two players here. I do not believe statistics are the only determining factor but as SRT fans indulge in name-dropping, I had to. Somebody mentioned that Pak had the best bowling in the 70s and 80s after WI - QUITE untrue. Aus did (Lillee, Thommo, Gilmour, Walker, Pascoe, Hogg etc). I have below Richards and SRT against the best bowling attacks of their eras on the opposition turf.
I have pulled out the greatest names for Aus and Pak who had consistently maintained some level or the other on the higher side through the two eras in question (70s and 80s; and the 90s and 00s). Also some other attacks after that to compare how Richards fared against them viz SRT.
1) Australia
Richards vs Australia in Australia (Lillee and Thomson both playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
8 535 153* 89.16 1
SRT vs Australia in Australia (McGrath and Warne both playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
1 3 3 3.00 0
SRT vs Australia in Australia (McGrath and Gillespie both playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
0 0 0 - 0
SRT vs Australia in Australia (McGrath playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
4 34 18 8.50 0
The King is miles and miles ahead.
2) Pakistan
Richards vs Pakistan in Pakistan (Imran and Nawaz both playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
2 119 83 59.50 0
Richards vs Pakistan in Pakistan (Imran and Akram both playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
9 389 80* 55.57 0
Richards vs Pakistan in Pakistan (Imran playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
13 508 83 46.18 0
SRT vs Pakistan in Pakistan (Akram playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
1 0 0 0.00 0
SRT vs Pakistan in Pakistan (Younis playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
4 30 21 7.50 0
SRT vs Pakistan in Pakistan (Shoaib playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
5 213 141 42.60 1
The King furthers his already immense lead. If I factor in the 'flat tracks and extreme batsman-friendly conditions of the decade of 2000-2010' that are often cited by many SRT fans here to put down the accomplishments of the likes of Ponting, Sehwag, Pietersen, Gilchrist etc, I should be giving SRT less than a average of 42.60. Anyway The King's lowest average in far more difficult batting conditions outstrips SRT's best (Two of them are 0 and 7.50; His average against Shoaib was over ONE SINGLE tour of five matches in 2004 on EXTREMELY flat tracks; No more of those arguments used against Ponting, Sehwag etc .... SRT fans?)
Among other significant statistics against great/excellent bowlers/attacks : -
Richards vs Willis-Botham in England
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
4 302 189* 151.00 1
Richards vs Hadlee in New Zealand
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
3 133 119 133.00 1
SRT vs Ambrose in WI (All matches in '97 when Ambrose was a young 35 yo)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
4 119 65* 39.66 0
SRT vs Donald in SA
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
12 236 45 19.66 0
SRT vs Bond in NZ
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
2 1 1 0.50 0
For me statistics and even conditions aside what puts Richards far ahead of any batsman since '70 (overall the second-greatest ever after Bradman and ahead of Sobers, Kanhai, Gavaskar, Chappell, Lara, SRT etc) was the fact that he was the most devastating, entertaining and feared batsman ever. He was also the best ever against genuine pace by quite a way. Aside from his ODI record, in Tests he averaged 62 till the end of 1982 and that with a sr of 70+)
Exclusively in ODIs he played what will remain the two greatest ODI knocks ever - 153* vs Lillee-Thomson-Hogg at the MCG in '79; and 189* vs Willis-Botham-Underwood at Old Trafford in '84. The level of batsmanship he achieved in those two matches was a hundred times higher than anything SRT can even dream of - and those were in the conditions of the 70s and 80s. In sharp contrast, all five of SRT's 150+ knocks have come on the flattest tracks, in the most batsman-friendly era, against the worst attacks ever - NZ '99 (no-names), Nam '03, NZ '08, Aus '09 (no McGrath/Warne/Gillespie/Lee/Johnson/Tait) and SA '10 (Steyn was hammered more by the likes of Karthik and Pathan and the rest was crap)
I know I will be taken apart by some here - some of whom would profess to be neutral. But none can deny the veracity of the statistics or the facts I have put up here.
This debate is in my mind completely out-of-question for IMO Richards was, is and will stay the Bradman of ODIs. The fact that he averaged close to 50 with a sr of over 90 in an era of the fastest, most dangerous, and intimidating bowlers ever, on the fastest, bounciest, and most difficult pitches ever, without even a helmet, when bowlers could do a lot more (any no of bouncers an over, balls down the leg-side, no fielding restrictions for even a delivery etc) is more than enough for me. Also boundaries were bigger, and bats were of inferior quality.
Several analysis have been done by Wisden, ICC etc. One by a longtime cricket-pundit (forget his name) multiplied average by strike-rate and took that as the final figure. EVERY such analysis had the King comfortably at 1. Wisden had SRT at 2, ICC had him at 12 (which is what I think he deserves), the third analysis had him at 7. Guys in between were deserving names - Chappell, Jones, Abbas etc.
Anyway, biased SRT fans here have always indulged in name-dropping. The four greatest fast bowlers ever according to most are Lillee, Marshall, Imran and Hadlee (in no particular order). Now three of those were pure Richards opponents; one his team-mate. Add to this what I feel is the MOST important factor - batsmen in the 70s and 80s had to fear for their limb and life and THEN keep their wickets intact and score their runs. In the 90s they no longer feared for their limb and life (protective gear from head to toe, restrictions on bowlers, better pitches, decline in fast bowling etc) and this last decade has been just cruel to fast bowlers with power-play, T20s etc.
Conditions completely ignored, I did some statistical filtering in Cricinfo for the two players here. I do not believe statistics are the only determining factor but as SRT fans indulge in name-dropping, I had to. Somebody mentioned that Pak had the best bowling in the 70s and 80s after WI - QUITE untrue. Aus did (Lillee, Thommo, Gilmour, Walker, Pascoe, Hogg etc). I have below Richards and SRT against the best bowling attacks of their eras on the opposition turf.
I have pulled out the greatest names for Aus and Pak who had consistently maintained some level or the other on the higher side through the two eras in question (70s and 80s; and the 90s and 00s). Also some other attacks after that to compare how Richards fared against them viz SRT.
1) Australia
Richards vs Australia in Australia (Lillee and Thomson both playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
8 535 153* 89.16 1
SRT vs Australia in Australia (McGrath and Warne both playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
1 3 3 3.00 0
SRT vs Australia in Australia (McGrath and Gillespie both playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
0 0 0 - 0
SRT vs Australia in Australia (McGrath playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
4 34 18 8.50 0
The King is miles and miles ahead.
2) Pakistan
Richards vs Pakistan in Pakistan (Imran and Nawaz both playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
2 119 83 59.50 0
Richards vs Pakistan in Pakistan (Imran and Akram both playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
9 389 80* 55.57 0
Richards vs Pakistan in Pakistan (Imran playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
13 508 83 46.18 0
SRT vs Pakistan in Pakistan (Akram playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
1 0 0 0.00 0
SRT vs Pakistan in Pakistan (Younis playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
4 30 21 7.50 0
SRT vs Pakistan in Pakistan (Shoaib playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
5 213 141 42.60 1
The King furthers his already immense lead. If I factor in the 'flat tracks and extreme batsman-friendly conditions of the decade of 2000-2010' that are often cited by many SRT fans here to put down the accomplishments of the likes of Ponting, Sehwag, Pietersen, Gilchrist etc, I should be giving SRT less than a average of 42.60. Anyway The King's lowest average in far more difficult batting conditions outstrips SRT's best (Two of them are 0 and 7.50; His average against Shoaib was over ONE SINGLE tour of five matches in 2004 on EXTREMELY flat tracks; No more of those arguments used against Ponting, Sehwag etc .... SRT fans?)
Among other significant statistics against great/excellent bowlers/attacks : -
Richards vs Willis-Botham in England
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
4 302 189* 151.00 1
Richards vs Hadlee in New Zealand
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
3 133 119 133.00 1
SRT vs Ambrose in WI (All matches in '97 when Ambrose was a young 35 yo)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
4 119 65* 39.66 0
SRT vs Donald in SA
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
12 236 45 19.66 0
SRT vs Bond in NZ
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
2 1 1 0.50 0
For me statistics and even conditions aside what puts Richards far ahead of any batsman since '70 (overall the second-greatest ever after Bradman and ahead of Sobers, Kanhai, Gavaskar, Chappell, Lara, SRT etc) was the fact that he was the most devastating, entertaining and feared batsman ever. He was also the best ever against genuine pace by quite a way. Aside from his ODI record, in Tests he averaged 62 till the end of 1982 and that with a sr of 70+)
Exclusively in ODIs he played what will remain the two greatest ODI knocks ever - 153* vs Lillee-Thomson-Hogg at the MCG in '79; and 189* vs Willis-Botham-Underwood at Old Trafford in '84. The level of batsmanship he achieved in those two matches was a hundred times higher than anything SRT can even dream of - and those were in the conditions of the 70s and 80s. In sharp contrast, all five of SRT's 150+ knocks have come on the flattest tracks, in the most batsman-friendly era, against the worst attacks ever - NZ '99 (no-names), Nam '03, NZ '08, Aus '09 (no McGrath/Warne/Gillespie/Lee/Johnson/Tait) and SA '10 (Steyn was hammered more by the likes of Karthik and Pathan and the rest was crap)
I know I will be taken apart by some here - some of whom would profess to be neutral. But none can deny the veracity of the statistics or the facts I have put up here.
Last edited:
Uppercut
Request Your Custom Title Now!
I just think it's interesting, is all. Tendulkar is one player who, while loved by everyone, is generally more highly rated in India than he is anywhere else (bar perhaps Australia). I suspect that a poll involving someone like Sehwag or Kumble would have nowhere near that trend of one nationality towards one option.
Some players never quite achieve the same level of respect from their own fans as they do elsewhere. Tendulkar is, quite conclusively, not one of those players.
silentstriker
The Wheel is Forever
I am done.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
I agree with everything you say except that Lara is the 2nd greatest batsman after Bradman because Gautam Gambhir is the 2nd greatest batsman
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Thanks for that compliment
Cevno
Hall of Fame Member
I have been a passive on-looker on this site for at about two years now. Its only now that I registered and am making my first post.
This debate is in my mind completely out-of-question for IMO Richards was, is and will stay the Bradman of ODIs. The fact that he averaged close to 50 with a sr of over 90 in an era of the fastest, most dangerous, and intimidating bowlers ever, on the fastest, bounciest and most difficult pitches ever, without even a helmet, when bowlers could do a lot more (any no of bouncers an over, balls down the leg-side, no fielding restrictions for even a delivery etc) is more than enough for me. Also boundaries were bigger, and bats were of inferior quality.
Several analysis have been done by Wisden, ICC etc. One by a longtime cricket-pundit (forget his name) multiplied average by strike-rate and took that as the final figure. EVERY such analysis had the King comfortably at 1. Wisden had SRT at 2, ICC had him at 12 (which is what I think he deserves), the third analysis had him at 7. Guys in between were deserving names - Chappell, Jones, Abbas etc.
Anyway, biased SRT fans here have always indulged in name-dropping. The four greatest fast bowlers ever according to most are Lillee, Marshall, Imran and Hadlee (in no particular order). Now three of those were pure Richards opponents; one his contemporary. Add to this what I feel is the MOST important factor - batsmen in the 70s and 80s had to fear for their limb and life and THEN keep their wickets intact and score their runs. In the 90s they no longer feared for their limb and life (protective gear from head to toe, restrictions on bowlers, better pitches, decline in fast bowling etc) and this last decade has been just cruel to fast bowlers with power-play, T20s etc.
Conditions completely ignored, I did some statistical filtering in Cricinfo for the two players here. I do not believe statistics are the only determining factor but as SRT fans indulge in name-dropping, I had to. Somebody mentioned that Pak had the best bowling in the 70s and 80s after WI - QUITE untrue. Aus did (Lillee, Thommo, Gilmour, Walker, Pascoe, Hogg etc). I have below Richards and SRT against the best bowling attacks of their eras on the opposition turf.
I have pulled out the greatest names for Aus and Pak who had consistently maintained some level or the other on the higher side through the two eras in question (70s and 80s; and the 90s and 00s). Also some other attacks later to compare how Richards fared against them viz SRT.
1) Australia
Richards vs Australia in Australia (Lillee and Thomson both playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
8 535 153* 89.16 1
SRT vs Australia in Australia (McGrath and Warne both playing)[/
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
1 3 3 3.00 0
SRT vs Australia in Australia (McGrath and Gillespie both playing)[
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
0 0 0 - 0
SRT vs Australia in Australia (McGrath playing):
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
4 34 18 8.50 0
The King is miles and miles ahead.
2) Pakistan
Richards vs Pakistan in Pakistan (Imran and Nawaz both playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
2 119 83 59.50 0
Richards vs Pakistan in Pakistan (Imran and Akram both playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
9 389 80* 55.57 0
Richards vs Pakistan in Pakistan (Imran playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
13 508 83 46.18 0
SRT vs Pakistan in Pakistan (Akram playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
1 0 0 0.00 0
SRT vs Pakistan in Pakistan (Younis playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
4 30 21 7.50 0
SRT vs Pakistan in Pakistan (Shoaib playing)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
5 213 141 42.60 1
The King furthers his already immense lead. If I factor in the 'flat tracks and extreme batsman-friendly conditions of the decade of 2000-2010' that are often cited by many SRT fans here to put down the accomplishments of the likes of Ponting, Sehwag, Pietersen, Gilchrist etc, I should be giving SRT less than a average of 42.60. Anyway The King's lowest average in far more difficult batting conditions outstrips SRT's best (Two of them are 0 and 7.50; His average against Shoaib was over ONE SINGLE tour of five matches in 2004 on EXTREMELY flat tracks; No more of those arguments used against Ponting, Sehwag etc .... SRT fans?
Among other significant statistics against great/excellent bowlers/attacks : -
Richards vs Willis-Botham in England
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
4 302 189* 151.00 1
Richards vs Hadlee in New Zealand
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
3 133 119 133.00 1
SRT vs Ambrose in WI (All matches in '97 when Ambrose was a young 35 yo)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
4 119 65* 39.66 0
SRT vs Donald in SA
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
12 236 45 19.66 0
SRT vs Bond in NZ
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
2 1 1 0.50 0
For me statistics and even conditions aside what puts Richards far ahead of any batsman since '70 (overall the second-greatest after Bradman and ahead of Sobers, Kanhai, Gavaskar, Chappell, Lara, SRT etc) was the fact that he was the most devastating, entertaining and feared batsman ever. He was also the best ever against genuine pace by quite a way. Aside from his ODI record, in Tests he averaged 62 till the end of 1982 and that with a sr of 70+)
Exclusively in ODIs he played what will remain the two greatest ODI knocks ever - 153* vs Lillee-Thomson-Hogg at the MCG in '79; and 189* vs Willis-Botham-Underwood at Old Trafford in '84. The level of batsmanship he achieved in those two matches was a hundred times higher than anything SRT can even dream of - and those were in the conditions of the 70s and 80s. In sharp contrast all five of SRT's 150+ knocks have come on the flattest tracks in the most batsman-friendly era against the worst attacks ever - NZ '99 (no-names), Nam '03, NZ '08, Aus '09 (no McGrath/Warne/Gillespie/Lee/Johnson/Tait) and SA '10 (Steyn was hammered more by the likes of Karthik and Pathan and the rest was crap)
I know I will be taken apart by some here - some of whom would profess to be neutral. But none can deny the veracity of the statistics of the facts I have mentioned here.
WOW!!!
L Trumper
State Regular
The other richards is not even the best batsmen in his teamIf talking cricket in general, Viv Richards isn't even the best batsman with that last name.
ToucheThe other richards is not even the best batsmen in his team
Ought to be a law against left handers, though.
Thus having conquered with his very first blow all that was worth conquering in the land of the cricketing web, Sir NYLove78 rode on to other, greater adventures.
Maximus0723
State Regular
Few new guys just voting/posting in Sachin threads...hmm...interesting