Richards v Tendulkar - ODIs

[Jono]

Yeah, SRT clearly the worst batsman of the last 20 years.

Dasa!

What a gun. Post more often damn you.

 

[Migara]

Yes. I apologize if I have to - I remembered your being from Colombo and your avatar but not your name - and was too worked up by the two posters before. Btw I am Indian ( from the South - from the state famous as G-O-C) So no offense - either at any conceivable group/community level or personal - I just could not spell your name.

Apology accepted.

Well I looked only for fast bowlers. Not the spinners. Maybe I should have. I was also trying to drive home the point that bowlers had no restrictions on them in an era of hardly any protective gear as in Richards' case. That was very different from SRT's era when protective gear and restrictions on fast bowlers made the batsmen's work a lot easier.

Wrong. Viv did not have fast bowlers going at his head in ODIs. Viv played under the rule of no bouncers. But I accept that it would have made not much of a difference to Viv's play. But Imran or Hadlee sending short stuff in ODIs wouldn't have bnn nice even for Viv. Protective gear rant is typical BS I feel. If Viv was so "adventerous" or" masculine" or "fearless" should have played without the box. If that was the case I would accept the fearless argument. And BTW, in Richard's era helmets was not needed in ODIs because no bouncers were deemed as no balls.

So? Is there any stipulation that such stats be used only in Tests and not in ODIs? I am sure you have seen that argument being used against Lara, Ponting etc. Are you telling me pitches were flat from 2000 Jan 01st 12:00:00 am onwards for only Tests and not ODIs?

This thread speaks of ODIs. The scope ends there. There are different threads with different scopes.

Cricket Web - Features: Standardised ODI Batting Performances will tell you how averages and strike-rates were significantly higher in the 90s - particularly from after '92 - compared to the 70s and 80s.

Accepted fact, and I have been alway advocating the standardized SRs in comparing ODI players. But the reasons that I pick SRT is not the stats. Mainly it's playing against better bowlers, particularly spinners, who were a real force in mid to late 90s. Viv did not play ODI spinners of the quality of Murali, Saqlain, Warne or Kumble.

 

[Fusion]

Yeah, SRT clearly the worst batsman of the last 20 years.

Dasa is back! The CC forum atmosphere immediately takes a turn for the better.

 

[NYLove78]

Mate, regardless of how you may or may not rate Sachin, posting stuff such as "fan boys" and "it hurts" and all that.. Even if you feel the other party is needlessly making it personal, you can always use the report post feature.. And FWIW, it is possible that Sachin fans will get wound up when they see inflammatory statements about their hero just as you would get worked up if someone posted similar stuff about Richards (I assume), regardless of whether it is backed up factually or not... These are two great players and it won't hurt to show some respect to the other guy from either side....


And regarding your stats, I echo what Jack said in that those are very interesting numbers... But it is definitely a very small sample size for both men to be compared on, don't you think? I personally felt Sachin was better by a small margin but I am coming around to accepting that Viv was better but can't we just keep the arguments civil and about the players and cricket alone?

HB, my point was to present some stats and some facts. Maybe the way I did it was provocative but I have seen stats used very provocatively on CW in the past. I do think SRT an all-time great; the second-best in this era (1990 to present) which roughly coincides with the years of my watching the game live; but clearly below Bradman, Richards, Sobers, Kanhai, Gavaskar, Chappell etc - my opinion. Also I rate Ponting and De Silva better as match-winners and possibly as players of fast bowling over this era. So its not that I look down upon him, but I also feel he is overrated by many.

You feel the sample size is small? Lets look at it this way. Richards played 180-odd matches - and those matches make up a significant part though a minority of those; If you feel SRT played very few matches in less than favorable conditions against the good or better attacks of his era, exactly in what conditions and against who was he playing most of his matches and scoring most of his runs and centuries and getting his MoMs against? His career-average of 44+ and sr of 86 are way higher than all except two sets put up there (And I have given my explanation for those two sets).

 

[NYLove78]

Apology accepted.

Wrong. Viv did not have fast bowlers going at his head in ODIs. Viv played under the rule of no bouncers. But I accept that it would have made not much of a difference to Viv's play. But Imran or Hadlee sending short stuff in ODIs wouldn't have bnn nice even for Viv. Protective gear rant is typical BS I feel. If Viv was so "adventerous" or" masculine" or "fearless" should have played without the box. If that was the case I would accept the fearless argument. And BTW, in Richard's era helmets was not needed in ODIs because no bouncers were deemed as no balls.

This thread speaks of ODIs. The scope ends there. There are different threads with different scopes.

Accepted fact, and I have been alway advocating the standardized SRs in comparing ODI players. But the reasons that I pick SRT is not the stats. Mainly it's playing against better bowlers, particularly spinners, who were a real force in mid to late 90s. Viv did not play ODI spinners of the quality of Murali, Saqlain, Warne or Kumble.

ICC's rule changes: A timeline - Top Stories - Cricket - Sports - The Times of India will tell you that the one-bouncer-per-over rule was introduced in '92. THERE WERE NO RESTRICTIONS AT ALL prior to that.

ODIs or Tests - either pitches went flat and attacks declined post-1999 in both or i neither. Either way I don't see how Ponting might have had an undue advantage (playing any team other than Ind) over SRT (unless playing Aus). SRT might have faced better spinners but Richards faced much better fast bowling. And as we saw with those stats SRT often benefited by facing the crap bench-strength of many teams.

 

[Sir Alex]

NY Lover,

I read your posts in general. I do not want to have a quote war here. Statistics are so damningly misleading because of the sheer number of ways they can be tweaked to suit one's argument.

eg - You said Richards average 46.18 in 13 matches vs Pakistan which featured Imran Khan. Totally true, and 6 50s and no hundreds in 13 matches is still pretty good.

But the same Richards while playing the same Imran Khan averages 12.38 from 14 ODIs in Australia. (yes, 12.38) (Highest score of 41 in 13 outings). So whatever point you were presumably trying to "prove" by quoting the Pakistan stats is literally rendered meaningless by this stat.

As I said before, I am no idiot to believe that Richards had some serious deficiency against world class pace bowling just because of his stas in Australia, because stats, selective stats are not be and end of all.

Welcome to CW mate.

 

[Ikki]

I don't get it. How does Richards average 46 in 13 games when Imran Khan plays and then 12 in 14 games in Australia? Isn't the sample the same? A link would be good.

I think NYLover is looking at some really small sample sizes with Tendulkar but even those small samples show he did not play the strongest attacks often.

The Richards' stats were very telling though.

 

[NYLove78]

I don't get it. How does Richards average 46 in 13 games when Imran Khan plays and then 12 in 14 games in Australia? Isn't the sample the same? A link would be good.

I think NYLover is looking at some really small sample sizes with Tendulkar but even those small samples show he did not play the strongest attacks often.

The Richards' stats were very telling though.

46 over 13 games was Richards' stat vs Imran in Pak.

12 over 14 is Richards' stat vs Imran in Aus.

 

[Sir Alex]

Alos NY lover,

You are being quite selective of who the best bowlers were during Viv Richards' period. No doubt the names you mentioned are class acts. But in that format therre were other class acts also, like Ackermann, Alderman, Pascoe, Younis, Safaraz, Qadir etc. No I don't wish to go into stat picking into their averages or anything.

 

[NYLove78]

NY Lover,

I read your posts in general. I do not want to have a quote war here. Statistics are so damningly misleading because of the sheer number of ways they can be tweaked to suit one's argument.

eg - You said Richards average 46.18 in 13 matches vs Pakistan which featured Imran Khan. Totally true, and 6 50s and no hundreds in 13 matches is still pretty good.

But the same Richards while playing the same Imran Khan averages 12.38 from 14 ODIs in Australia. (yes, 12.38) (Highest score of 41 in 13 outings). So whatever point you were presumably trying to "prove" by quoting the Pakistan stats is literally rendered meaningless by this stat.

As I said before, I am no idiot to believe that Richards had some serious deficiency against world class pace bowling just because of his stas in Australia, because stats, selective stats are not be and end of all.

Welcome to CW mate.

So you rate (Lillee-Thommo in Aus) over (Imran-Nawaz or Imran alone in Aus)? There is always a 10% that can be excluded. You ignore an average of 90 vs Lillee-Thommo in Aus, averages from 46 to 60 vs Imran, Nawaz and Akram in Pak, 150 vs Willis-Botham in Eng and 130+ vs Hadlee in NZ and choose this one specific stat? Don't you think you are doing the 'cherry-picking' now?

But look at SRT averaging in single digits again and again against the best attacks of his era, averaging sub-20 vs Donald in SA, never facing McGrath-Gillespie together in Aus, and has barely 40 vs 35 yo Ambrose and and 42 vs Shoaib in 'an era of flat tracks and batsman-friendly conditions'.

 

[honestbharani]

also, how are the WSC stats for Viv? surely, he would have played quite a bit of Imran there?

 

[NYLove78]

Alos NY lover,

You are being quite selective of who the best bowlers were during Viv Richards' period. No doubt the names you mentioned are class acts. But in that format therre were other class acts also, like Ackermann, Alderman, Pascoe, Younis, Safaraz, Qadir etc. No I don't wish to go into stat picking into their averages or anything.

His stats against Pascoe, Alderman, Rackemann are even better. He averages 40+ vs Qadir in Pak.

I already named Sarfaraz Nawaz. Comparable stats in ODIs as well as Tests to the best bowlers of the 90s, only thing he played much fewer matches. Was a pioneer of reverse swing and there must be a reason he was selected among 'the ten scariest fast bowlers ever' - The ten - Cricket - www.theage.com.au

 

[Sir Alex]

Sachin Tendulkar averages 47 in 46 games vs Muthiah Muralitharan.
He averages 58.70 in 17 games involving Shane Warne.

Richards average 37 in 17 matches involving Qadir.

 

[Sir Alex]

So you rate (Lillee-Thommo in Aus) over (Imran-Nawaz or Imran alone in Aus)? There is always a 10% that can be excluded. You ignore an average of 90 vs Lillee-Thommo in Aus, averages from 46 to 60 vs Imran, Nawaz and Akram in Pak, 150 vs Willis-Botham in Eng and 130+ vs Hadlee in NZ and choose this one specific stat? Don't you think you are doing the 'cherry-picking' now?

But look at SRT averaging in single digits again and again against the best attacks of his era, averaging sub-20 vs Donald in SA, never facing McGrath-Gillespie together in Aus, and has barely 40 vs 35 yo Ambrose and and 42 vs Shoaib in 'an era of flat tracks and batsman-friendly conditions'.

I don't know and I don't care.

I wanted to make just two points.

Stats selective ones at that can be misleading
Tendulkar dominated spinners more perhaps than fast bowlers.

 

[Sanz]

I did not use foul language, or lies or incorrect stats. Unless you are accusing me of the same. The figures there show a gap so vast between the two bats compared here. You can always go to CI and check if you feel I am lying. My intention was to expose this farce and I am pleased having done that. I have seen Lara, Ponting etc being slighted here using stats. Sometimes its the pitches getting flatter at 12 am on the first day of the new millennium. And sometimes its all the great bowlers of the 90s deciding to retire as the new century dawned.

The Amount of BS you have been spouting is just too much. I do not know if you lied or posted incorrect stats but onus is on you to post the links if you want people to buy the Bull**** you are selling. If you can't or don't then obviously people are going to believe whatever they want to.

I am not accusing you of telling lies or posting incorrect stats. What you have done is actually worse which is cherry picking the stats in order to spew your own hatred in this thread.

It is not hard to do that to any batsman, even if it is someone as Good/Great as IVAR. Here is a sample, with links (unlike you) .


Sachin (in matches Imran Played) :- 43.75 (SR 104.16)

IVAR (in matches Imran Played) :- 33.03 (SR 94.37)

Sachin (in Matches Wasim Played in Aus) :- 54.50 (SR 86.85)

IVAR (in Matches Wasim Played in Aus) :- 8.00 (SR 46.510

Sachin (In Matches Hadlee Played in NZ) :- 36.00 (SR 92.30)

IVAR (In Matches Hadleed Played in NZ) :- 19.25 (SR 89.53)

 

[Cevno]

If t Nylove had read this thread then he would have already gotten the reply for almost all his arguments.

But he makes the same argument again and adds some absolute nonsense.
Now call me lazy or ignorant ,but i am not going to go again round in circles debating the same points with the same stats and proving him round.
And btw,his selective use of statistics is pretty useless and crude.

 

[Cevno]

The Amount of BS you have been spouting is just too much. I do not know if you lied or posted incorrect stats but onus is on you to post the links if you want people to buy the Bull**** you are selling. If you can't or don't then obviously people are going to believe whatever they want to.

I am not accusing you of telling lies or posting incorrect stats. What you have done is actually worse which is cherry picking the stats in order to spew your own hatred in this thread.

It is not hard to do that to any batsman, even if it is someone as Good/Great as IVAR. Here is a sample, with links (unlike you) .


Sachin (in matches Imran Played) :- 43.75 (SR 104.16)

IVAR (in matches Imran Played) :- 33.03 (SR 94.37)

Sachin (in Matches Wasim Played in Aus) :- 54.50 (SR 86.85)

IVAR (in Matches Wasim Played in Aus) :- 8.00 (SR 46.510

Sachin (In Matches Hadlee Played in NZ) :- 36.00 (SR 92.30)

IVAR (In Matches Hadleed Played in NZ) :- 19.25 (SR 89.53)

Pwned.

 

[Shri]

Both of them are over rated. Proof.

 

[Cevno]

sachin tendulkar averages 47 in 46 games vs muthiah muralitharan.
He averages 58.70 in 17 games involving shane warne.

Richards average 37 in 17 matches involving qadir.

:-o

 

[NYLove78]

The Amount of BS you have been spouting is just too much. I do not know if you lied or posted incorrect stats but onus is on you to post the links if you want people to buy the Bull**** you are selling. If you can't or don't then obviously people are going to believe whatever they want to.

I am not accusing you of telling lies or posting incorrect stats. What you have done is actually worse which is cherry picking the stats in order to spew your own hatred in this thread.

It is not hard to do that to any batsman, even if it is someone as Good/Great as IVAR. Here is a sample, with links (unlike you) .


Sachin (in matches Imran Played) :- 43.75 (SR 104.16)

IVAR (in matches Imran Played) :- 33.03 (SR 94.37)

Sachin (in Matches Wasim Played in Aus) :- 54.50 (SR 86.85)

IVAR (in Matches Wasim Played in Aus) :- 8.00 (SR 46.510

Sachin (In Matches Hadlee Played in NZ) :- 36.00 (SR 92.30)

IVAR (In Matches Hadleed Played in NZ) :- 19.25 (SR 89.53)

HA. WHO cares what you accuse me of and what not. You judge what is more bad and what less and then say I did something worse. And YOU? YOU have posted the stats for SRT against a 37+ yo Imran Khan (b.1952) and a Richard Hadlee that was 39+ yo (b.1951) when he faced them. So the King has to face these guys at their strongest, fastest and best match after match, year upon year; and SRT catches them years past their best. And the two are same?

Even better, you have shown your true colors and I know it CANNOT be a mistake. You saw the ODI stats for Richards vs Hadlee were exactly what I had posted and so took the Test ones instead and TRIED TO PASS THEM OFF as the stats for ODIs. What's more those three Tests of 1981 were the most notorious in the era of the 70s and 80s as the umpires cheated away to glory for NZ till Holding kicked down the stumps in anger. Hey I will call you Honest Abe or Honest Sanz from now. Honest intellectually, factually and statistically.

Good work Richards vs peak Imran and peak Hadlee and SRT vs past-his-prime Imran and past-his-prime Hadlee. And then the stats for a 33+ yo Richards against an Akram at his youngest and strongest. And even better deliberately present the wrong stats.

Look, Sanz I do respect you like I do the likes of Archie Mac and SJS. But what you did now was worse that what I can ever be accused of doing. The reason I took ODI performances against those teams and bowlers was on account of their strength wrt their eras. And I have taken peak-to-peak performances. Lillee, Thomson, Imran, Hadlee, Nawaz, Willis, Botham etc were PURE Richards opponents. PURE in the sense that they met peak-to-peak. Same goes for SRT vs McGrath, Warne, Gillespie, Donald, Younis, Shoaib, Bond etc. And I did this for matches played on opposition turf.

Even then I shall be back later with stats for Imran for '89 to '92 in comparison to his stats for his entire career. SRT faced the former and Richards the latter. Ditto for Hadlee in '90 and over his entire career. That way we will know how these two of the very greatest ever were doing in the period that SRT faced them viz the period that Richards faced them.

My next post I shall have the links for each and every stat I provided and you can see if I cheated (unlike you).