Richards vs. Tendulkar -Tests

[Cruxdude]

In the matches involving Sachin and McGrath. McGrath has taken him out 6 out of 18 times. Not something that you would call being owned.

 

[Sir Alex]

Way to go, he averaged 19.25 in 4 innings in NZ, but you ignore the fact that he averaged 54 in Pakistan and 49 in Australia. Not only did he average 47 away and at home, his 1st/2nd/3rd/4th innings are all high too. Even against them separately he averages in the 40s which means he didn't belt up on one player and fall to bits against another - he was very good against them all pretty much.

This is rather simple: Richards did better against the best of his time. Not that it's the only consideration, but that you claiming otherwise...you were just wrong. It's very easy mate, you say this:

"I was wrong; Tendulkar isn't easily better than Richards, and is arguable if at all."

Hadlee was a swing bowler and Richards came out a cropper in such conditions against him.

What about Sachin's success over Walsh, McGrath (2 out of 3 series), Murali, Ambrose, Warne etc??

 

[Ikki]

Hadlee was a swing bowler and Richards came out a cropper in such conditions against him.

Hadlee was a seam bowler primarily. And the WIndies were probably the most pace-friendly bowling conditions in the world. He averaged 62 against him there.

What about Sachin's success over Walsh, McGrath (2 out of 3 series), Murali, Ambrose, Warne etc??

I named Sachin vs WIndies and Sri Lanka (although, calling Murali an attack is a stretch) before. His record in games with Warne and McGrath is average - with Warne out of sorts, really. But yeah, you could name them too.

You listed a heap of names, from Waqar to Donald...the point was just playing them is of little consequence; succeeding against them is the key to the debate. Richards succeeded against all those attacks in his time. Even did well in WSC against the best.

If performances against the best are what you are after, look at Chappell's record against the WIndies attack. Or his 246* in WSC against Roberts, Imran and Garner! And his record is as good as Ponting's in it's completeness. Actually it's better. The only place he averages less than 40 at is in Australia vs New Zealand where he averages 36.

 

[Cevno]

Yes

I took up a list of bowlers who had averages of 30 or less during Richards' time and Tendulkars' time, and I omitted the respective West Indian and Indian bowlers.

Tendulkar faced bowlers like below: (Min qual 100 wickets)

Sl No	Player  		Mat  	Wkts  	 Avg 
1	CEL Ambrose (WI) 	87	356	 20.68 
2	GD McGrath (Aus) 	124	563	 21.64 
3	AA Donald (SA) 		72	330	 22.25 
4	M Muralitharan (ICC/SL) 132	792	 22.71 
5	Wasim Akram (Pak) 	79	338	 22.72 
6	SM Pollock (SA) 	108	421	 23.11 
7	DW Steyn (SA) 		38	196	 23.51 
8	Waqar Younis (Pak) 	87	373	 23.56 
9	IR Bishop (WI) 		43	161	 24.27 
10	CA Walsh (WI) 		104	420	 24.28 
11	SK Warne (Aus) 		145	708	 25.41 
12	Shoaib Akhtar (Pak) 	46	178	 25.69 
13	JN Gillespie (Aus) 	71	259	 26.13 
14	CJ McDermott (Aus) 	47	211	 26.52 
15	PR Reiffel (Aus) 	35	104	 26.96 
16	ARC Fraser (Eng) 	46	177	 27.32 
17	MG Hughes (Aus) 	44	178	 27.44 
18	HH Streak (Zim) 	65	216	 28.14 
19	D Gough (Eng) 		58	229	 28.39 
20	MG Johnson (Aus) 	32	143	 28.45 
21	M Ntini (SA) 		101	390	 28.82 
22	SCG MacGill (Aus) 	44	208	 29.02 
23	CL Cairns (NZ) 		62	218	 29.40 
24	WPUJC Vaas (SL) 	111	355	 29.58 
25	DG Cork (Eng) 		37	131	 29.81 
26	Saqlain Mushtaq (Pak) 	49	208	 29.83 
27	AR Caddick (Eng) 	62	234	 29.91

Richards faced:

SL	Player  		Span  		Mat  	Wkts  	 Avg 
1	Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) 	1976-1990 	79	411	 21.59 
2	Imran Khan (Pak) 	1976-1991 	83	357	 22.25 
3	DK Lillee (Aus) 	1975-1984 	56	292	 23.73 
4	Wasim Akram (Pak) 	1985-1991 	39	143	 24.51 
5	RGD Willis (Eng) 	1975-1984 	76	280	 24.55 
6	BA Reid (Aus) 		1985-1991 	25	106	 24.74 
7	BS Bedi (India) 	1975-1979 	30	128	 26.85 
8	TM Alderman (Aus) 	1981-1991 	41	170	 27.15 
9	DL Underwood (Eng) 	1975-1982 	37	121	 28.00 
10	Iqbal Qasim (Pak) 	1976-1988 	50	171	 28.11 
11	IT Botham (Eng) 	1977-1991 	99	380	 28.26 
12	RM Hogg (Aus) 		1978-1984 	38	123	 28.47 
13	CJ McDermott (Aus) 	1984-1991 	33	136	 28.84 
14	JR Thomson (Aus) 	1975-1985 	47	176	 29.00 
15	MG Hughes (Aus) 	1985-1991 	34	131	 29.17 
16	GR Dilley (Eng) 	1979-1989 	41	138	 29.76 
17	N Kapil Dev (India) 	1978-1991 	112	385	 29.81

There were 12 bowlers during Tendulkar's time in the opposition averaging below 26 as compared to 6 during Richards' time.

very interesting stat that.

 

[Sir Alex]

Hadlee was a seam bowler primarily. And the WIndies were probably the most pace-friendly bowling conditions in the world. He averaged 62 against him there.



I named Sachin vs WIndies and Sri Lanka (although, calling Murali an attack is a stretch) before. His record in games with Warne and McGrath is average - with Warne out of sorts, really. But yeah, you could name them too.

You listed a heap of names, from Waqar to Donald...the point was just playing them is of little consequence; succeeding against them is the key to the debate. Richards succeeded against all those attacks in his time. Even did well in WSC against the best.

If performances against the best are what you are after, look at Chappell's record against the WIndies attack. Or his 246* in WSC against Roberts, Imran and Garner! And his record is as good as Ponting's in it's completeness. Actually it's better. The only place he averages less than 40 at is in Australia vs New Zealand where he averages 36.

Chappell, Ponting I am not falling for your nth thread divert

However one aspect of your argument exuded some sense (at last). The one about WSC. What was Richards' stats in those? I believe he did well in that

 

[Cevno]

Chappell, Ponting I am not falling for your nth thread divert

However one aspect of your argument exuded some sense (at last). The one about WSC. What was Richards' stats in those? I believe he did well in that

With him it is always about Ponting ,no matter what is the topic of the thread.

I think he is arguing for Richards on here because he feels ,that if he somehow accepts Tendulkar better at tests ,then his theory about ponting being better then Sachin will become more tough to accept.

 

[Ikki]

That's the back injury. The tennis elbow was where he consistently struggled to play certain shots.

The back injury was in 1999 and he was getting treatment for years, and was still doing well.

Ironically, during 03 and 04 his ODI he averaged 57 and 40 respectively.

 

[Sir Alex]

The back injury was in 1999 and he was getting treatment for years, and was still doing well.

Ironically, during 03 and 04 his ODI he averaged 57 and 40 respectively.

Back injuries can't recur?

Performing in ODIs = Performing in tests?

By his standards 2004 ODI performances were below average anyway.

 

[Ikki]

Chappell, Ponting I am not falling for your nth thread divert

With him it is always about Ponting ,no matter what is the topic of the thread.

I think he is arguing for Richards on here because he feels ,that if he somehow accepts Tendulkar better at tests ,then his theory about ponting being better then Sachin will become more tough to accept.

It's just fun to see you squirm. You try to portray a statistical argument why Tendulkar is better than Richards, as if it's as clear-cut as that...then when I give you two examples of players whose statistics are clearly better than Tendulkar's you recoil and talk about how it's just "much more than stats".

The reason I am arguing for Richards is because I think he was a tad bit better. Amongst all-time greats it is NEVER easily one or the other, as Precam so ridiculously put.

You two just need to get down from the 200* high.

However one aspect of your argument exuded some sense (at last). The one about WSC. What was Richards' stats in those? I believe he did well in that

He did awesomely in that, only second to Chappell I think. Very few batsmen averaged above 40 in that let alone above 50. It is known by those that played it as the highest/toughest level of cricket they ever played.

 

[Ikki]

Back injuries can't recur?

Performing in ODIs = Performing in tests?

By his standards 2004 ODI performances were below average anyway.

So they recur just as he happens to play great bowlers. How convenient.

And no, by his standards his 2004 performances were fine. Better than 2000 for example, not far off 2008. Average of 40 and SR of 80 is nothing to sniff at.

As for ODI compared to Tests...well he didn't last long did he in the Test innings due to this injury - why he didn't score well. Yet he lasted longer in ODIs, even if it is a different format and did more than well. Interesting. I didn't know your injuries could tell what format you're playing in.

 

[silentstriker]

So they recur just as he happens to play great bowlers. How convenient.

Irony meter explodes.

 

[Sir Alex]

I

You two just need to get down from the 200* high.

Says the man who is still stuck in 2006

He did awesomely in that, only second to Chappell I think. Very few batsmen averaged above 40 in that let alone above 50. It is none by those that played it as the highest/toughest level of cricket they ever played.

Good on them. Any specific numbers please?

 

[Ikki]

Irony meter explodes.

Yeh, I know what you're getting at...but once again I have to point out that Warne failed against mediocre batsmen too. So how ironic that he failed against everybody during his period...not just the good opposition.

 

[Ikki]

Says the man who is still stuck in 2006

What about me is stuck in 2006? You joined in Nov 2009 and said Ponting was better than Tendulkar. Are you still in 2006 too?

Good on them. Any specific numbers please?

World Series Cricket Player Records - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Cevno]

Don't forget the only series AUS won in India ,had ponting conveniently out.

 

[Sir Alex]

Irony meter explodes.

This is why I am so glad Tendulkar scored massively in the last series vs SA. In 2008, even though he was coming off a fantastic Aus down under series, he was injured and hence did not feature against Steyn & Co.Tomorrow had the series had not happened, Ikki would have claimed Tendulkar averaged a grand 0.00 agains an attack comprising Steyn etc and he got himself injured to avoid playing Steyn further.

 

[Ikki]

Don't forget the only series AUS won in India ,had ponting conveniently out.

That's ok, all the other series he won against better opponents still count

 

[Sir Alex]

What about me is stuck in 2006? You joined in Nov 2009 and said Ponting was better than Tendulkar. Are you still in 2006 too?



World Series Cricket Player Records - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When did I say Ponting is better than Tendulkar? Don't lie please. I like and admire Ponting bu I am totally blindly in love with Tendulkar. So while I will argue for Ponting in other Ponting vs xxx thread, I will argue for Tendulkar when it comes to Ponting vs Tendulkar.

Thanks for the WSC stats.

 

[Ikki]

This is why I am so glad Tendulkar scored massively in the last series vs SA. In 2008, even though he was coming off a fantastic Aus down under series, he was injured and hence did not feature against Steyn & Co.Tomorrow had the series had not happened, Ikki would have claimed Tendulkar averaged a grand 0.00 agains an attack comprising Steyn etc and he got himself injured to avoid playing Steyn further.

Tendulkar scored against some great bowlers there.... Somehow Steyn has suddenly become as good as Donald and Pollock on his own. Amazing.

 

[Sir Alex]

That's ok, all the other series he won against better opponents still count

Yeah some reason why Waugh was calling India the last frontier.