Where does Vettori rank all-time as an all-rounder?

[Athlai]

Reckon most NZ fans (myself included) would just be satisfied to see Vettori labelled as a " good Test all-rounder" and nothing more, and are only really opposed to him being cut down to the status of "bits & pieces" player only, obviously there's the odd exception like Athai - who does wear his heart on his sleeve which can result in him over-rating NZ players.

Hey!

Would actually settle for good Test all-rounder tbh.

As for the Cairns v. Vettori debate I'd go with Heath. I'd back Vettori to stick around longer when the going gets tough but Cairns could be almost as influential with the bat. I was going to say Cairns was more aggressive but Dan also scores at a pretty high rate.

 

[Zinzan]

I said this earlier, but it was too long apparently. It would be interesting to see how Vettori would go bowling in the subcontinent to players from New Zealand, England and the West Indies (and to a lesser extent South Africa and Australia)

Indeed, a point that be continues to be ignored for some reason, and surprises me when missed by a top poster such as Upper's, who's usually fairly thorough in his analysis of players

 

[Athlai]

I just think it makes things unnecessarily difficult for himself. What if referrals hadn't been in place during this test? Vettori would barely have arrived at the crease and he'd have been batting with Shane Bond, with O'Brien and Martin to come. I honestly think Vettori's either the best or second-best batsman in the side. He looked destined for a century, but could so easily have been stranded on 40*. How is it good for team balance to have one of your best batsman batting with rank tail-enders all the time?

If he batted at 6 then we'd have had Elliott or McCullum at 8.

 

[Zinzan]

Hey!

Would actually settle for good Test all-rounder tbh.

As for the Cairns v. Vettori debate I'd go with Heath. I'd back Vettori to stick around longer when the going gets tough but Cairns could be almost as influential with the bat. I was going to say Cairns was more aggressive but Dan also scores at a pretty high rate.

To be fair, your comments at the start of this thread hardly suggest you'd just be satisfied with the 'good test cricketer' label', after all, you did come out all guns about Vettori being about the same is Pollock as a Test crciketer, which is mildly deluded to be kind about it.

 

[Uppercut]

This may well be true, but have you also considered if he had played for a team like Pakistan, SL or India, that he would have predominately been bowling to batsmen not so well versed at batting in those conditions as opposed to be an overseas player only bowling to Inidan. Pakistani's & Sri Lankan batsmen in their own backyard when he does visit the subcontinent (this assuming we're excluding Bang). Therefore the likes of Harbhajan & Karneria should have superior records there.

I have considered it, and I've come to the conclusion that we don't know. We'll never have the chance to find out whether Vettori would have been better had he played for Pakistan, just as we'll never have the chance to find out whether Harbhajan Singh would have been worse had he bowled for New Zealand. All we have to go on is what Vettori has done, and for me, it's not enough to rank him alongside Flintoff, Pollock or Cairns.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

All we have to go on is what Vettori has done.

Which you already succinctly summed up as "FA" with the ball, yes?

 

[Uppercut]

If he batted at 6 then we'd have had Elliott or McCullum at 8.

Neither are as good as Vettori, so that would arguably be better, but I'd probably just play Jimmy Franklin and bat him at 8.

 

[Athlai]

To be fair, your comments at the start of this thread hardly suggest you'd just be satisfied with the 'good test cricketer' label', after all, you did come out all guns about Vettori being about the same is Pollock as a Test crciketer, which is mildly deluded to be kind about it.

I said same ball park tbf. Pollock is that similar highly unrecognised for how good he really is cricketer and one of the best one day players of all time.

 

[Uppercut]

Which you already succinctly summed up as "FA" with the ball, yes?

Maybe not FA, I'll withdraw that comment, but it's not enough.

 

[Athlai]

And Uppercut you noted how few wickets Vettori has taken, and compared him to Giles. On average Dan takes 2.0 wickets an innings, Giles takes 1.6
Murali takes 3.5, Warne, 2.6, Kumble 2.6, Benaud 2.1, Bedi 2.3, Mushy 2.4.

 

[Zinzan]

I have considered it, and I've come to the conclusion that we don't know. We'll never have the chance to find out whether Vettori would have been better had he played for Pakistan, just as we'll never have the chance to find out whether Harbhajan Singh would have been worse had he bowled for New Zealand. All we have to go on is what Vettori has done, and for me, it's not enough to rank him alongside Flintoff, Pollock or Cairns.

Haha, come on man, it's fairly obvious that Harbhajan;s record would be slightly inferior & Vettori's slightly better if Harby had played for NZ & vice versa, for the same reasons that for most Indian seamers in would be the opposite case , I think most knowledgeable cricket fans would be comfortable making that assumption, hypothetically or not.

 

[Zinzan]

I have considered it, and I've come to the conclusion that we don't know. We'll never have the chance to find out whether Vettori would have been better had he played for Pakistan, just as we'll never have the chance to find out whether Harbhajan Singh would have been worse had he bowled for New Zealand. All we have to go on is what Vettori has done, and for me, it's not enough to rank him alongside Flintoff, Pollock or Cairns.

And for me, Flintoff didn't do nearly enough with the ball in his career to rank alongside Pollock or Cairns

 

[Uppercut]

And Uppercut you noted how few wickets Vettori has taken, and compared him to Giles. On average Dan takes 2.0 wickets an innings, Giles takes 1.6
Murali takes 3.5, Warne, 2.6, Kumble 2.6, Benaud 2.1, Bedi 2.3, Mushy 2.4.

Yeah, it's a measure of his importance to New Zealand that he takes so many wickets per innings. But I'm not a massive fan of that particular statistic. With a non-Bangladesh average of 38, even if he took 10 wickets per innings, he'd only be dismissing the opposition for around 380.

 

[Zinzan]

I said same ball park tbf. Pollock is that similar highly unrecognised for how good he really is cricketer and one of the best one day players of all time.

Well what's "the same ball park" supposed to imply then...mean's you're implying they;re pretty even doesn't it ?

 

[Uppercut]

And for me, Flintoff didn't do nearly enough with the ball in his career to rank alongside Pollock or Cairns

Completely agree ftr. Actually, Cairns hasn't done enough with the ball to rank alongside Pollock either. But there you go

 

[Zinzan]

And Uppercut you noted how few wickets Vettori has taken, and compared him to Giles. On average Dan takes 2.0 wickets an innings, Giles takes 1.6
Murali takes 3.5, Warne, 2.6, Kumble 2.6, Benaud 2.1, Bedi 2.3, Mushy 2.4.

Incidentally, what's Flintoff's if you can be bothered ?

 

[Zinzan]

Completely agree ftr. Actually, Cairns hasn't done enough with the ball to rank alongside Pollock either. But there you go

and Pollock hasn't done enough with the bat to rank alongside Imran if we're going to be like that

 

[Athlai]

Well what's "the same ball park" supposed to imply then...mean's you're implying they;re pretty even doesn't it ?

Well Vettori is far poorer with the ball but arguably his equal or better with the bat. (Vettori with a couple more tons) Both are incredibly miserly and have 3000 runs + 300 wickets, which is what makes me think they are in the same ball park. I should reiterate that Pollock is at the far end of that park due to his bowling, but Vettori is certainly in the gate IMO.

 

[Uppercut]

and Pollock hasn't done enough with the bat to rank alongside Imran if we're going to be like that

Indeed

 

[Athlai]

incidentally, what's flintoff's if you can be bothered ?

1.65

And Cairns 2.10
Pollock 2.08