Where does Vettori rank all-time as an all-rounder?

[HeathDavisSpeed]

tl; dr is a pet hate of mine when used as above.

I don't even know what it means. Totally lost on me, obviously I'm not committed enough as a forum geek!

 

[NZTailender]

I don't even know what it means. Totally lost on me, obviously I'm not committed enough as a forum geek!

Too long; didn't read.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I don't even know what it means. Totally lost on me, obviously I'm not committed enough as a forum geek!

I didn't know either but on looking it up and quoting the Urban Dictionsary it means:

""Too long; didn't read" Said whenever a nerd makes a post that is too long to bother reading."

 

[G.I.Joe]

<insert lolcat image here>

 

[NZTailender]

Pakistan is borderline.

Vettori or Ajmal? Not a hard choice, for mine.

 

[Uppercut]

And for the record, I'm not even a New Zealander, but I can recognise that Vettori is priceless to NZ. Moreso than Cairns as NZ have had other seam bowlers over the last 15 years who could (and did) replace Cairns, but to replace Vettori they've had to play people like Grant Bradburn or Paul Wiseman.

Are you okay? Kinda ate my face off a bit. Sorry if I offended you.

Anyway, you're absolutely right. Vettori's as crucial to New Zealand as any other player in the world is to their team. Does that make him as good a cricketer as Cairns was, though? Or does it just reflect the fact that New Zealand has had so many more good fast bowlers than it's had good spinners?

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Anyway, you're absolutely right. Vettori's as crucial to New Zealand as any other player in the world is to their team. Does that make him as good a cricketer as Cairns was, though? Or does it just reflect the fact that New Zealand has had so many more good fast bowlers than it's had good spinners?

But that's not what you said, is it?

Yeah. If by tough pick you mean Chris Cairns.

For New Zealand, it is nowhere near as clear cut as you suggest. Vettori >>>>>> any other spinner in NZ that can bat whereas to replace Cairns, you have Franklin at the very least who would be a very easy replacement if you wanted batting with the ability to bowl. Now, Cairns would be a better bowler than Franklin but by much less of a distance.

Therefore, if I had to choose between Vettori and Cairns and could only have one; I would take Vettori.

 

[Uppercut]

Vettori or Ajmal? Not a hard choice, for mine.

Hmm, Vettori doesn't generally do much on the sub-continent though. It's reasonable to assume that he would be much more effective in Pakistan or India had he always played there, but it is still speculating to some extent. I'd back Ajmal to take more wickets in Pakistan as things stand.

 

[Uppercut]

But that's not what you said, is it?



For New Zealand, it is nowhere near as clear cut as you suggest. Vettori >>>>>> any other spinner in NZ that can bat whereas to replace Cairns, you have Franklin at the very least who would be a very easy replacement if you wanted batting with the ability to bowl. Now, Cairns would be a better bowler than Franklin but by much less of a distance.

Therefore, if I had to choose between Vettori and Cairns and could only have one; I would take Vettori.

Well then, it depends what you're asking. If you're picking a player for a team with lots of pace options and no spin options then of course you'll pick Vettori, but it doesn't make him a better player, which is what I thought the question was.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

but it doesn't make him a better player, which is what I thought the question was.

This was the question you responded to:

Dan Vettori vs Chris Cairns would be a tough pick nowadays..

To which you replied in the way you did.

And, as I think you have agreed now, if you had to choose between the two then it would be a tough choice. Which is a bit different from your original, somewhat sarcastic reply.

 

[Uppercut]

This was the question you responded to:



To which you replied in the way you did.

And, as I think you have agreed now, if you had to choose between the two then it would be a tough choice. Which is a bit different from your original, somewhat sarcastic reply.

Well, I interpreted NUFAN differently from you. For New Zealand, it's definitely a tough pick. Actually, you'd just pick both without even thinking, but you get the point.

Does anyone here think that Vettori's a better player than Cairns was though?

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Does anyone here think that Vettori's a better player than Cairns was though?

I'd say he is a more effective bat now than Cairns ever was. With the ball, Cairns would come up with a moment of magic ever now and again that Vettori doesn't appear capable of, but the difference isn't that vast.

Vettori > Cairns (with bat)
Cairns >> Vettori (with ball - EDIT: in terms of value to the team)

(EDIT: excepting that comparing a right-arm seamer to a left-arm spinner is a somewhat odd thing to do)

 

[Flem274*]

Wow, this thread went boom.

IMO Vettori is a good test allrounder. In terms of spinner's he's the best we have, unless we want to throw in young Beard or Nethula on potential/suicidemission. He's a damn good batsman that could bat six for any test side, not just us.

I could theorise that if he'd played for a side in the recent Ashes, that team may well have won. He's a better and more experienced spinner than they had and his runs come at important times when the other team has you on 6/sfa.

In the recent SL test if our top three had actualy done something other than their usual collapse Vettori's 141 would have won that test.

People talk about greats being matchwinners. Matchwinners very rarely win games by themselves. They need some of those other ten guys to do something.

 

[Uppercut]

Vettori is a properly good batsman these days, but he continues to bat at 8, so it's hard to weight that too heavily. When you don't, the difference between the two seems a lot bigger.

EDIT: This is what I meant when I called him a "batting all-rounder that bats at 8". He's so obviously and frustratingly good enough to bat up the order, he just doesn't.

 

[Zinzan]

Hmm, Vettori doesn't generally do much on the sub-continent though. It's reasonable to assume that he would be much more effective in Pakistan or India had he always played there, but it is still speculating to some extent. I'd back Ajmal to take more wickets in Pakistan as things stand.

This may well be true, but have you also considered if he had played for a team like Pakistan, SL or India, that he would have predominately been bowling to batsmen not so well versed at batting in those conditions as opposed to be an overseas player only bowling to Inidan. Pakistani's & Sri Lankan batsmen in their own backyard when he does visit the subcontinent (this assuming we're excluding Bang). Therefore the likes of Harbhajan & Karneria should have superior records there.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Vettori is a properly good batsman these days, but he continues to bat at 8, so it's hard to weight that too heavily. When you don't, the difference between the two seems a lot bigger.

Cairns had a proper batting line up to bat around on occasions. Fleming, Astle, Richardson whereas Vettori has Taylor pretty much. This current test is a prime example. He comes into the match with an injury, bats when his team are 200-6 and by the time he's gone nearly 400 runs are on the board. How can you weight that contribution any less than its worth just because he came in at 8? You damn the man because he trusts his team's batsmen to do the batting? (even though experience should tell him that a collapse is pretty much guaranteed)

 

[Zinzan]

Well, I interpreted NUFAN differently from you. For New Zealand, it's definitely a tough pick. Actually, you'd just pick both without even thinking, but you get the point.

Does anyone here think that Vettori's a better player than Cairns was though?

Nope, Cairns > than both Vettori & Flintoff as a Test cricketer IMO & I'm sure in most CW'bian's minds too

 

[Uppercut]

Wow, this thread went boom.

IMO Vettori is a good test allrounder. In terms of spinner's he's the best we have, unless we want to throw in young Beard or Nethula on potential/suicidemission. He's a damn good batsman that could bat six for any test side, not just us.

He's good with the bat, really good, but you don't bat him in place of JP Duminy or Marcus North. Don't push it .

I could theorise that if he'd played for a side in the recent Ashes, that team may well have won. He's a better and more experienced spinner than they had and his runs come at important times when the other team has you on 6/sfa.

Aha, that's more speculation though!

In the recent SL test if our top three had actualy done something other than their usual collapse Vettori's 141 would have won that test.

People talk about greats being matchwinners. Matchwinners very rarely win games by themselves. They need some of those other ten guys to do something.

Completely agree.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

This may well be true, but have you also considered if he had played for a team like Pakistan, SL or India, that he would have predominately been bowling to batsmen not so well versed at batting in those conditions as opposed to be an overseas player only bowling to Inidan. Pakistani's & Sri Lankan batsmen in their own backyard when he does visit the subcontinent (this assuming we're excluding Bang). Therefore the likes of Harbhajan & Karneria should have superior records there.

I said this earlier, but it was too long apparently. It would be interesting to see how Vettori would go bowling in the subcontinent to players from New Zealand, England and the West Indies (and to a lesser extent South Africa and Australia)

 

[Uppercut]

Cairns had a proper batting line up to bat around on occasions. Fleming, Astle, Richardson whereas Vettori has Taylor pretty much. This current test is a prime example. He comes into the match with an injury, bats when his team are 200-6 and by the time he's gone nearly 400 runs are on the board. How can you weight that contribution any less than its worth just because he came in at 8? You damn the man because he trusts his team's batsmen to do the batting? (even though experience should tell him that a collapse is pretty much guaranteed)

I just think it makes things unnecessarily difficult for himself. What if referrals hadn't been in place during this test? Vettori would barely have arrived at the crease and he'd have been batting with Shane Bond, with O'Brien and Martin to come. I honestly think Vettori's either the best or second-best batsman in the side. He looked destined for a century, but could so easily have been stranded on 40*. How is it good for team balance to have one of your best batsman batting with rank tail-enders all the time?