Where does Vettori rank all-time as an all-rounder?

[Smudge]

[*]John Bracewell
.

Since when does 6=8?

 

[Zinzan]

Well... both kapil and botham average more with the bat than the ball. that puts them in a different league. they are the great all rounders. botham happens to be a rung above kapil. who else has scored 10+ hundreds (14) and taken 10+ fivefers (27) in the history of the game? so botham above kapil is perfectly fine by me.

then there are the ray lindwalls, wasim akrams and richie benauds who averaged under 30 with bat and had slightly higher bowling averages. they were all called bowling all rounders.

you also have the vinoo mankad, andrew flintoff category who averaged 30+ with the bat and a fraction above that with the ball. they are the good test all rounders you are trying to define.

then you also have the vettoris and pathans of this world who score under 30 with the with bat and concede 7-8 runs more per wicket. they are called the bits and pieces all rounders

Haha, ok. so your sticking with the 'bits & pieces' label & won't even allow him the status as a 'good Test all-rounder" Based on this, am assuming you wouldn't rate Vettori to make many other test sides in the world, is that right?

 

[Cruxdude]

Haha, ok. so your sticking with the 'bits & pieces' label & won't even allow him the status as a 'good Test all-rounder" Based on this, am assuming you wouldn't rate Vettori to make many other test sides in the world, is that right?

It might actually be tough for him to get into a test side. I would love to have him in T20s and ODIs, but for tests I would prefer some one who takes wickets and Vettori is not good enough to make it into an Indian team as a batsman.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Vettori would make any Indian team that has the likes of Ravindra Jadeja playing for it.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Pollock makes Vettori look like a donkey for mine.

Vettori's a misfit, a batting all-rounder who bats at 8.

Yeah. If by tough pick you mean Chris Cairns.

but when people start comparing him to Shaun Pollock or Chris Cairns it's slipping into the realm of ridiculous I reckon.

...but that he takes FA wickets in a poor side is a fact.

Haha, the NZ CW contingent can be so precious sometimes.

Well, if you post absolute ****ing bat ****, then expect to get called out on it.

You have incredibly scurrilous regarding Daniel Vettori. NZ would have been up the ****ter on many occasions without him and yet you dismiss comparisons with Pollock by calling Vettori a "donkey". You ignore the fact that he's taken over 300 wickets by calling him a "batting all-rounder"

You clearly don't know the first thing about New Zealand. Seriously, the comparisons between yourself and Prince EWS are so far off the mark that he makes you look like a donkey in comparison.

Now, that's being precious.

Personally, I don't rate him as an "Ian Botham" or "Kapil Dev", but he clearly deserves comparison with Richie Benaud, Anil Kumble, Harbhajan Singh and any other spinner who's batted between 6 and 9 and saved his team's arse on several occasions. Whether you think Vettori is better than the above is neither here nor there, he deserves comparison.

And I love all the statisticians that come out of the woodwork for looking at Vettori. He plays (for the most part) on green New Zealand pitches and when he gets to play on a spinning deck, such as India or Sri Lanka, he gets to bowl to people who can play spin. He doesn't get to play against England, for example, on a spinning wicket very often at all. You should take out all of Kumble and Murali's home wickets against England in the 90s as they couldn't play spin for **** back then. Blah blah blah. You can prove whatever you like with stats if you try hard enough, but the fact is that Vettori has taken more than 300 wickets; mostly on wickets that don't suit his game and YOU have the cheek to call this "FA". Maybe I'll be less emotive when you can come up with a balanced view.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Wow. Of all the topics to stir up a schissestorm, I'd never have imagined it'd be this.

Dan Vettori vs Chris Cairns would be a tough pick nowadays..

Well, In a recent poll, we established that in this forum anyway, Cairns was favoured over Flintoff as a better Test cricketer by a ratio of about 3 to 1 & I'm guessing Flintoff would be favoured in a similar poll against Vettori. So based on that, think Cairns would rate well ahead of Vettori in most peoples eyes

Agree with zinzan here. At his peak I think most people would take Cairns, myself included. Cairns was a much more fluent batsman than Vettori (I'd back Danny Boy to stay around for longer, but he's not the kind of player to force the pace like the big fella was) and was also a martyr to his body.

I think Vettori's one of those chaps one admires for making the very most of his ability. He doesn't make either discipline look easy (his batting is particularly hard on the eye; I've seen him play substantial innings without ever hitting the ball in front of square), but he hangs in there. Knows his game better than practically any current player I reckon.

 

[bagapath]

Haha, ok. so your sticking with the 'bits & pieces' label & won't even allow him the status as a 'good Test all-rounder"

I am myopic!!! So I wont be able to see anything other than what I choose to believe in

Based on this, am assuming you wouldn't rate Vettori to make many other test sides in the world, is that right?

I think he is a very handy cricketer. He could be a good no 7 or 8 provided there are three other top class front line pace bowlers capable of running through the opposition. in that kind of a team vettori can be a very good fourth bowling option and a useful late order batsman. otherwise, expecting him to spearhead the bowling attack or counting on the runs he scores would make the team as weak as the current new zealand lot.

to answer your question.. no he wouldnt make many other sides IMO.he wont make it to the present indian team for sure. harbhajan is a much more superior spin bowler. vettori would struggle to make it to the test XI with his credentials.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

I am myopic!!! So I wont be able to see anything other than what I choose to believe in

Haha. Touche.

 

[Zinzan]

Haha, the NZ CW contingent can be so precious sometimes.

Haha, one gets the feeling you enjoy labouring that point, because you've made it on a few occasions now & I'm not sure it's entirely fair based on what's been said in this thread.

Reckon most NZ fans (myself included) would just be satisfied to see Vettori labelled as a " good Test all-rounder" and nothing more, and are only really opposed to him being cut down to the status of "bits & pieces" player only, obviously there's the odd exception like Athai - who does wear his heart on his sleeve which can result in him over-rating NZ players.

Bet ya any money you'd see a similar reaction from English posters if similar things were said of Flintoff, who to be fair has a worse bowling average for a fast bolwer than Vettori does as a spinner IMHO and apart from 2-3 magnificent performances in Ashes tests , doesn't have a record that dis-similar to Vettori's. And lets not forget, Vettori's had the odd magnificent performance versus Australia as well such as his 7-87, but didn't as strong a team around him as Flintoff' did to take his team to victory.

For the record, I do rate Flintoff higher than Vettori as a Test cricketer when he's fit, but certainly not by the margin some people like Baga seem to be making out.

I 'd like to ask you the same question as I ask Baga and that is, do you think Vettori would make most other Test sides currently?

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Reckon most NZ fans (myself included) would just be satisfied to see Vettori labelled as a simply " good Test all-rounder" and are only really opposed to him being cut down to the status of "bits & pieces" player only, obviously there's the odd exception like Athai - who does wear his heart on his sleeve bless-em & does tend to over-rate NZ players.

Agree with you here. I think Uppercut is as guilty of being overly emotive as he was accusing me of. Labelling a player who's scored over 3,000 runs and taken 300 wickets as being a "donkey" [compared to Pollock] and saying he's taken "FA" wickets is just incredibly insulting to Vettori.

I would attempt a comparison of a player Uppercut likes, but he'd just say "he's not English" and there's certainly no Irish players that warrant comparison.

 

[aussie]

Vettori could make every major test team in the world ATM thats for sure.

 

[Anil]

he is at par with ravi shastri (who was a very effective batsman and a slightly inferior bowler than dan).

shastri achieved much more with the bat in both tests and one dayers and was a better one day bowler than vettori in his prime...i think shastri was clearly better as a cricketer...

 

[bagapath]

Reckon most NZ fans (myself included) would just be satisfied to see Vettori labelled as a simply " a good Test all-rounder"

I can happily say Richard Hadlee is the greatest bowling all rounder of all time and that Chris Cairns was a bloody good test all rounder. Will that satisfy you guys?

(On other news, I will be working with Sir Paddles on a commercial very soon. It is for a NGO. So there is not much money in it for anyone. But I am not going to pass up the opportunity of directing one of my childhood heroes )

 

[Uppercut]

Well, if you post absolute ****ing bat ****, then expect to get called out on it.

You have incredibly scurrilous regarding Daniel Vettori. NZ would have been up the ****ter on many occasions without him and yet you dismiss comparisons with Pollock by calling Vettori a "donkey". You ignore the fact that he's taken over 300 wickets by calling him a "batting all-rounder"

You clearly don't know the first thing about New Zealand. Seriously, the comparisons between yourself and Prince EWS are so far off the mark that he makes you look like a donkey in comparison.

Now, that's being precious.

Personally, I don't rate him as an "Ian Botham" or "Kapil Dev", but he clearly deserves comparison with Richie Benaud, Anil Kumble, Harbhajan Singh and any other spinner who's batted between 6 and 9 and saved his team's arse on several occasions. Whether you think Vettori is better than the above is neither here nor there, he deserves comparison.

And I love all the statisticians that come out of the woodwork for looking at Vettori. He plays (for the most part) on green New Zealand pitches and when he gets to play on a spinning deck, such as India or Sri Lanka, he gets to bowl to people who can play spin. He doesn't get to play against England, for example, on a spinning wicket very often at all. You should take out all of Kumble and Murali's home wickets against England in the 90s as they couldn't play spin for **** back then. Blah blah blah. You can prove whatever you like with stats if you try hard enough, but the fact is that Vettori has taken more than 300 wickets; mostly on wickets that don't suit his game and YOU have the cheek to call this "FA". Maybe I'll be less emotive when you can come up with a balanced view.

tl; dr

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Haha, the NZ CW contingent can be so precious sometimes.

And for the record, I'm not even a New Zealander, but I can recognise that Vettori is priceless to NZ. Moreso than Cairns as NZ have had other seam bowlers over the last 15 years who could (and did) replace Cairns, but to replace Vettori they've had to play people like Grant Bradburn or Paul Wiseman.

 

[Zinzan]

I can happily say Richard Hadlee is the greatest bowling all rounder of all time and that Chris Cairns was a bloody good test all rounder. Will that satisfy you guys?

(On other news, I will be working with Sir Paddles on a commercial very soon. It is for a NGO. So there is not much money in it for anyone. But I am not going to pass up the opportunity of directing one of my childhood heroes )

Come-on, let's not be babyish about it, it's not a matter of trying to satisfy anyone, it's simply a matter of providing a fair assessment of any player concerned & IMHO, I think you underrate Vettori a tad, that's all.

 

[zaremba]

Since when does 6=8?

You got me there

 

[Uppercut]

Haha, one gets the feeling you enjoy labouring that point, because you've made it on a few occasions now & I'm not sure it's entirely fair based on what's been said in this thread.

Reckon most NZ fans (myself included) would just be satisfied to see Vettori labelled as a simply " a good Test all-rounder" and are only really opposed to him being cut down to the status of "bits & pieces" player only, obviously there's the odd exception like Athai - who does wear his heart on his sleeve bless-em & does tend to over-rate NZ players.

Bet ya any money you'd to see a similar reaction from English posters if a similar things was said of Flintoff, who to be fair has a worse bowling average for a fast bolwer than Vettori does as a spinner IMO and apart from 2-3 magnificent performances in Ashes tests (and Vettori has had a 7-87 spell vs Oz before, but unlike Flintoff, didn't have a strong enough team around him to get the victory), doesn't have a record that dis-similar to Vettori's.

For the record, I do rate Flintoff higher than Vettori as a Test cricketer when he's fit, but certainly not by the margin some people like Baga seem to be making out.

I 'd like to ask you the same question as I ask Baga and that is, do you think Vettori would make most other Test sides currently?

I think that's the first time I've made that point about the NZers here. Did not expect Heath's subsequent blow-up in any case.

I don't think the English posters would get offended by someone speaking about Flintoff in similar terms (ftr, I think Pollock is embarrassingly far ahead of him too). If they did I'm sure I'd accuse them of being precious too. There's no need to take offence on behalf of your team, you know yourself that how I rate players has nothing to do with their nationality, and you probably know as well that I rate Vettori himself as one of the best ODI bowlers around.

Going off-topic there though, so I'll answer your question. I'd pick Vettori for Australia, England, Bangladesh, West Indies and South Africa. Pakistan is borderline. Let's not take my criticisms too heavily, they were only in response to opinions that I thought were overselling him. He's a good spinner, a good captain and a good batsman.

But I'll ask you- how many current test teams would Pollock or Flintoff get into? All of them, surely? Without a moment's hesitation.

 

[Halfpast_Yellow]

tl; dr

tl; dr is a pet hate of mine when used as above.

If reading 13 lines of text is 'hard' then lack of reading education is at fault, don't try and stick that failing onto someone else as a comeback.

For what it's worth in this thread, I think Vettori has been a fantastic cricketer for NZ, and would be a valuable player in any test side.

 

[Zinzan]

I think that's the first time I've made that point about the NZers here.

Um, no it's not