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*Official* England in West Indies

aussie

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
tooextracool said:
The problem with England at the moment is that almost all of their players have not progressed since their early years. Whether this is down to the coaching or not must be questioned, but can anyone truly say that the Strauss from 2009 is better than the Strauss of 2004? Is the Cook from 2009 better than the Cook from 2006? Is the Panesar of 2009 better than the Panesar of 2006? Has Collingwood improved since his debut? Has Harmison made any progress? Most players around the world improve over time, however, in Englands case the majority of them have either stayed the same or regressed. One could only use Pietersen as an example of progress made. I mean seriously, how long has Cook been batting with exactly the same technical flaws that were discovered in the Ashes of 2006/07? I mean youd think he would have ironed them out by now.

AFAIC, we have gone on for far too long thinking that this is the best batting lineup in the country and that there is no one else better in county cricket. However, our batting has failed us series after series after series and it has got to the point where wholesale changes need to be made. Cook hasnt been dropped since his debut, and if he fails for this series, he needs to go back to county cricket to get his flaws ironed out. I'd be tempted to push him down the order during this series, as hes had most of his success at 3 and his technique is not good enough to last the new ball. Collingwood has to go after the Ashes irrespective of how he does. Bell should be replaced by Shah for the next game. I really would like to see a revamped middle order.
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Solid post as usual. But gotta disagree with the bolded.

- Collingwood has improved since his debut in 03 without a doubt. He has become England's most solid & most dependable batsman since the Ashes. Since he cemented his or should i say proven he is a test match batsman in PAK 05, he hasn't really had poor run. Even when he was dropped vs SA last summer it was controversial.

- Secondly. This is our best batting-lineup. Has you said yourself these guys like Bell, KP, Cook & Vaughan have not taken it to the next level. Thats has alot to to with the fact that no county batsman has really been pushing them for a place in the last few years. A big problem with the domestic system.
 
FBU

FBU

International Debutant
superkingdave said:
Most dissapointing thing for me is that Dave's not going to get a look in for ages now.

In some ways is probably better that Jimmy didn't get to play in this debacle, but i'll be sick if he doesn't get picked for the next test. Can blatantly see England going for the 'these players got us into this mess so we are going to give them a chance to get us out of it' line though.
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Better to keep Sidebottom who hasn't played for 6 months and Harmison who needs miles in his legs in the side on what is likely to be a bowlers graveyard where the West Indies will probably get about 785 runs. Lara managed 400 just on his own last time.

We can bring in Anderson for Barbados and Trinidad. We don't want him worn out before the season starts at Lancs with Moores as the new coach. :laugh:

Simmons has been called up after his 282 in the warm up game.
 
T

tooextracool

International Coach
Bob Bamber said:
Much bigger problems with Collingwood, who has an amazing ability to turn up when he needs to, not when England need him to.
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Collingwood is the least of England's problems at the moment. Hes score 2 100s in his last 8 visits to the crease and both of them should have ended up in winning situations if the rest of the side didnt botch things up. I like Collingwood, he has a decent coversion rate and hes greater than the sum of his parts. I dont know why hes the perennial fall guy, it seems like everytime England do badly, hes the first one who has his head under the axe.
 
T

tooextracool

International Coach
wpdavid said:
AWTA, except I don't know who'd open instead of Cook from the current squad, so he's probably going to stay there for the next 3 games. Bearing in mind our series after the Ashes is in SA, the revamping probably has to happen at the start of the home series against WI..
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Forgot about that series tbh, would make sense to see a new look England side for that series.

wpdavid said:
On the bowling front, I read elsewhere that in 2008 Anderson took 46 test wickets at a smidge under 30, whereas Harmy took 6 at 57. So guess who's a fixture in the side again. Let's hope no-one gives Jimmy the ICL's phone number just yet.
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Well, as far as Anderson is concerned, I share the same sentiments as you. However, lets be fair here, even if he had played, he wouldnt have been able to change England's fortunes in that game. Anderson is a one trick pony, hes a deadly bowler when he has the perfect conditions to bowl in and he exploits his conditions as well as anyone. However, hes never going to be consistently taking wickets in all conditions, or be deadly in any set of bowling conditions. Hes no Simon Jones.

Sadly, the one bowler whos made the most progress in the England side this decade isnt even in the squad. Unfortunately, his career is now considered finished, despite the fact that come this Ashes he will be younger than most of the opposition bowlers.
 
TT Boy

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
tooextracool said:
Well, as far as Anderson is concerned, I share the same sentiments as you. However, lets be fair here, even if he had played, he wouldnt have been able to change England's fortunes in that game. Anderson is a one trick pony, hes a deadly bowler when he has the perfect conditions to bowl in and he exploits his conditions as well as anyone. However, hes never going to be consistently taking wickets in all conditions, or be deadly in any set of bowling conditions. Hes no Simon Jones.
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Jimmy can reverse it and bowls with a similar trajectory as Taylor and at least he wouldn’t have banged it in short. The likes of Sidebottom and Harmison just bowled too short all game and Sidebottom’s natural length just isn’t full enough, especially when his bowling with no discernable pace.

Anderson is no world beater but he should be in the side.
 
T

tooextracool

International Coach
aussie said:
Solid post as usual. But gotta disagree with the bolded.

- Collingwood has improved since his debut in 03 without a doubt. He has become England's most solid & most dependable batsman since the Ashes. Since he cemented his or should i say proven he is a test match batsman in PAK 05, he hasn't really had poor run. Even when he was dropped vs SA last summer it was controversial.
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I would definetly call his run from the NZ winter series all the way down to the SA series as a poor run of form. Against SA in the first couple of games, he was batting as though he was holding a 2 inch stick instead of a cricket bat. I like Collingwood, but hes never going to be anything other than ok. Hes 33 now, and there have to be question marks as to how much an ok 33 year old player can offer us more than a 24-25 year old who is only marginally worse but has a long term future.

aussie said:
Secondly. This is our best batting-lineup. Has you said yourself these guys like Bell, KP, Cook & Vaughan have not taken it to the next level. Thats has alot to to with the fact that no county batsman has really been pushing them for a place in the last few years. A big problem with the domestic system.
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Players like Cook, Vaughan, Bell and Strauss hardly set the world alight in CC before making their debuts. Cook had one good season and was picked, albeit he had been identified very early for his potential. Vaughan never really accomplished anything in CC when he was picked. Bell had failed to impress for years, he was talked about around 2001 as someone who had loads of potential and only got picked 3 years later.

If these guys got picked ahead of some other people, why should other players currently in CC not get the same opportunity? Bopara has had a couple of good seasons now with 50+ averages. Trott has had numerous good seasons under his belt and his last season was his most impressive. Patel has an excellent domestic record whatever way you look at it. Eoin Morgan has had a good season on top of a solid season last year.Ok, they may not really be setting the world alight, and they might not be better than Vaughan, Collingwood, Bell and Strauss. But they are younger, if the old generation blew their chances of cementing their places in England cricketing fame, why should the younger generation who have done just as well as them not be given the same opportunity to blow it as well? You never know how good these players can be if you dont give them a chance.
 
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T

tooextracool

International Coach
TT Boy said:
Jimmy can reverse it and bowls with a similar trajectory as Taylor and at least he wouldn’t have banged it in short. The likes of Sidebottom and Harmison just bowled too short all game and Sidebottom’s natural length just isn’t full enough, especially when his bowling with no discernable pace.

Anderson is no world beater but he should be in the side.
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He should be, and I expressed that same feeling when he was dropped rather ungratefully by the England management. Hes a better bowler than Sidebottom will ever be and I dont see myself changing my mind on that anytime soon. But one needs to be realistic regarding how much he can be expected to achieve. Hes still only 26 and its up to him to learn some new tricks that will make him threatening all around the world.
 
Jono

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
silentstriker said:
I don't understand the Vaughan love.

Here are his averages by each calendar year:
  1. 28.69
  2. 43.71
  3. 61.70
  4. 41.65
  5. 35.60
  6. 38.25
  7. 47.56
  8. 24.20
I mean, really? I've no clue about the domestic forms of Shah, Key, Bopara, or whoever is in line to replace him, but I'd rather take a chance on someone new than go back to that, even for a couple years.
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I've always said he's unbelievably overrated, but that was when he was in the team.

Calling for his recall is now far worse, and surely taking the piss.

I guess they want to replace a guy who makes nice looking useless scores of 15-20 (Bell), with a guy who makes awesome looking useless looking scores of 15-20, is doing **** ALL domestically, is even older and has one leg.

Bringing back Vaughan will seriously sum up English cricket.
 
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Precambrian

Precambrian

Banned
Haha, good to see Vaughan love back on the forums. I am yet to see a more overrated player. Vaughan is 34, and his best time is past. England are much better with Bell than Vaughan and it sends all sorts of bad messages to aspiring players toiling hard in domestic games.
 
Jono

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
silentstriker said:
But overall, does it matter? His occassional brilliance has been mixed in with way too much mediocrity. What do you gain by putting him in there? He may give you a brilliant series, but more often than not, he'll just be a liability. His overall record is sort of like Sehwag's, it is way too flattering. And unlike Sehwag, it's not even that good by modern batting great standards. So you want a guy with a decent but not great record that already flatters him, and who'll give you lots of mediocre knocks with a few great ones thrown in. I mean that's OK if the guy is starting out and you want him to develop into something, but I'd rather take an unproven scorer over him anyday of the week.

I'm sure Shah, or Key, or Bopara, or someone in the English county system can do better than 27 average. At least they have a shot at being a long term option.

And at least you give guys a try who may or may not succeed. Regardless of where he has been in all time in terms of centuries, he still only has 1 in his last 13 at an average of 27. If he were still scoring them, it'd be one thing.
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Post would be excellent if you didn't denigrate Sehwag so irrationally. Sehwag has played so many better innings, and under the pump, than Vaughan has in the last 5 years, its so fair to even mention them both as players whose record flatters them.
Goughy said:
Ill break it down. Of all the current English players only KP has a much better batting average. Vaughan has a higher average than Bell, Bopara, Cook, Flintoff, Prior and Shah. Strauss just shades him. This is STILL after having a nightmare patch. The simple fact is that those numbers you list are better than almost everyone else.

2ndly, he has 18 Test hundreds. That is good for 7th in the English all time list ahead of a lot of guys that played a lot more Tests. 7th alltime

Sure he has technical issues and has been poor recently but there is noone else better.

His numbers may not be great but they compare very favorably to others. Any issues have to be with his form and fitness neither of which concern me in the short term and with the standard of competition.

If there was a new KP waiting in the wings then Vaughan should not get a look in but there isnt.
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Is Vaughan superstar? No.

And he hardly fits in your idea of 'muscular cricket'.

Should be nowhere near the England team.

Ironically, Shah fits your 'tough' cricketer image more.
 
Evermind

Evermind

International Debutant
LOL @ the suggestion of Vaughan being brought back. I had no idea what he was doing in the side even when he was in it - he was the ultimate passenger, the specialist captain. I can't imagine anything more damaging for English cricket than the reinstatement of Vaughan. It's not like he's a Warne or a McGrath, FFS. I'm sure you can find a dozen batsmen in FC cricket who're easily able to bat as well as he was batting in the last few years.

LOL also at Sehwag being compared to Vaughan. Different class altogether.
 
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Son Of Coco

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
TT Boy said:
Jimmy can reverse it and bowls with a similar trajectory as Taylor and at least he wouldn’t have banged it in short. The likes of Sidebottom and Harmison just bowled too short all game and Sidebottom’s natural length just isn’t full enough, especially when his bowling with no discernable pace.

Anderson is no world beater but he should be in the side.
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He spent a lot of time doing exactly that against us in the last Ashes, but may have improved somewhat since then I guess.
 
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