*Official* England in West Indies

[Goughy]

I don't understand the Vaughan love.

Here are his averages by each calendar year:

1. 28.69
2. 43.71
3. 61.70
4. 41.65
5. 35.60
6. 38.25
7. 47.56
8. 24.20

I mean, really? I've no clue about the domestic forms of Shah, Key, Bopara, or whoever is in line to replace him, but I'd rather take a chance on someone new than go back to that, even for a couple years.

Ill break it down. Of all the current English players only KP has a much better batting average. Vaughan has a higher average than Bell, Bopara, Cook, Flintoff, Prior and Shah. Strauss just shades him. This is STILL after having a nightmare patch. The simple fact is that those numbers you list are better than almost everyone else.

2ndly, he has 18 Test hundreds. That is good for 7th in the English all time list ahead of a lot of guys that played a lot more Tests. 7th alltime

Sure he has technical issues and has been poor recently but there is noone else better.

His numbers may not be great but they compare very favorably to others. Any issues have to be with his form and fitness neither of which concern me in the short term and with the standard of competition.

If there was a new KP waiting in the wings then Vaughan should not get a look in but there isnt.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Loved the PA system playing "London Bridge is falling down" when Sid went. Nice touch.

High quality bowling from Taylor tho. Equal 4th best figures for a five-wicket haul and the equal best by a non-Australian.

 

[roseboy64]

Have had a rethink and think the squad for the second Test should be:

Gayle
Ramdin
Sarwan
Chanderpaul
Nash
Smith
Marshall
Hinds
Powell
Edwards
Benn
Taylor
Jaggernauth/Miller
Baker

 

[silentstriker]

But overall, does it matter? His occassional brilliance has been mixed in with way too much mediocrity. What do you gain by putting him in there? He may give you a brilliant series, but more often than not, he'll just be a liability. His overall record is sort of like Sehwag's, it is way too flattering. And unlike Sehwag, it's not even that good by modern batting great standards. So you want a guy with a decent but not great record that already flatters him, and who'll give you lots of mediocre knocks with a few great ones thrown in. I mean that's OK if the guy is starting out and you want him to develop into something, but I'd rather take an unproven scorer over him anyday of the week.

I'm sure Shah, or Key, or Bopara, or someone in the English county system can do better than 27 average. At least they have a shot at being a long term option.

And at least you give guys a try who may or may not succeed. Regardless of where he has been in all time in terms of centuries, he still only has 1 in his last 13 at an average of 27. If he were still scoring them, it'd be one thing.

 

[PhoenixFire]

SS can I catch you on MSN?

 

[BoyBrumby]

Ha, Nasser just used "gun" as an adjective to describe KP & Fred. Another closet CW fan?

 

[PhoenixFire]

Haha, I remember when Cricinfo used dire as a way to describe someone (probably England) on the front page.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Bob Willis in absolute prime form. Pietersen is the "dumb slog millionaire". Best line ever.

 

[PhoenixFire]

Yeah WAG. Shame Willis and Boycs have never been in a commentary box together.

 

[wpdavid]

Ill break it down. Of all the current English players only KP has a much better batting average. Vaughan has a higher average than Bell, Bopara, Cook, Flintoff, Prior and Shah. Strauss just shades him. This is STILL after having a nightmare patch. The simple fact is that those numbers you list are better than almost everyone else.

2ndly, he has 18 Test hundreds. That is good for 7th in the English all time list ahead of a lot of guys that played a lot more Tests. 7th alltime

Sure he has technical issues and has been poor recently but there is noone else better.

His numbers may not be great but they compare very favorably to others. Any issues have to be with his form and fitness neither of which concern me in the short term and with the standard of competition.

If there was a new KP waiting in the wings then Vaughan should not get a look in but there isnt.

Nicely put, but there's some iffy use of statistics there tbh. Firstly, Bopara and Shah have played so few tests (3 and 2 respectively?), that you can't draw any meaningful conclusions purely from their 5-day records. Not that Bopara bats at number 3, but anyway. Secondly, as we all know, Vaughan's respectable average is massively dependent on what he did 6-7 years ago. After 2004, it looks from SS's figures to be in the mid-30's, which is a long period of mediocrity.


All that being said, he might still have a role to play, if only because Bell & Cook have been so disappointing in the top 3, and I'm not 100% convinced that Shah will cut it either. But we do need to be realistic about his performance over the last 4-5 years. The only years in that period when he averaged over 40 included taking advantage of home series against extremely ropey WI attacks.

 

[tooextracool]

I dont mind Shah being selected as an injury replacement or a shortterm measure but he isnt a long term option.

Not sure how you can say this and then put Vaughan's for contention for the test side. As some have suggested Shah at least deserves a chance to fail, as he has been hanging around the side without a decent run for quite a while now. In one of his 2 appearances, his performance was instrumental in winning a test match. Like you, I dont really see him as a long term option, I dont even think he will be a successful test match cricketer, but there is a question of right and wrong here and the fact of the matter is that it is unjust for average players like Vaughan, Bell and Bopara to continually get selected over him.

As far as his record is concerned, there is little relevance in looking at his record pre 2003. It's not related to what the Vaughan of today can produce and thats all that matters. His average today is 40 odd but thats only because his average pre 2003 was 50 odd. Its called the Jimmy Adams effect.

 

[Manee]

Bob Willis in absolute prime form. Pietersen is the "dumb slog millionaire". Best line ever.

Genius statement, relevant to the match and the IPL - pure brilliance. His second one was brilliance too and raised more of a laugh, something about Harmison going home to the darts board at the old man's club.

 

[tooextracool]

The problem with England at the moment is that almost all of their players have not progressed since their early years. Whether this is down to the coaching or not must be questioned, but can anyone truly say that the Strauss from 2009 is better than the Strauss of 2004? Is the Cook from 2009 better than the Cook from 2006? Is the Panesar of 2009 better than the Panesar of 2006? Has Collingwood improved since his debut? Has Harmison made any progress? Most players around the world improve over time, however, in Englands case the majority of them have either stayed the same or regressed. One could only use Pietersen as an example of progress made. I mean seriously, how long has Cook been batting with exactly the same technical flaws that were discovered in the Ashes of 2006/07? I mean youd think he would have ironed them out by now.

AFAIC, we have gone on for far too long thinking that this is the best batting lineup in the country and that there is no one else better in county cricket. However, our batting has failed us series after series after series and it has got to the point where wholesale changes need to be made. Cook hasnt been dropped since his debut, and if he fails for this series, he needs to go back to county cricket to get his flaws ironed out. I'd be tempted to push him down the order during this series, as hes had most of his success at 3 and his technique is not good enough to last the new ball. Collingwood has to go after the Ashes irrespective of how he does. Bell should be replaced by Shah for the next game. I really would like to see a revamped middle order.

 

[wpdavid]

The problem with England at the moment is that almost all of their players have not progressed since their early years. Whether this is down to the coaching or not must be questioned, but can anyone truly say that the Strauss from 2009 is better than the Strauss of 2004? Is the Cook from 2009 better than the Cook from 2006? Is the Panesar of 2009 better than the Panesar of 2006? Has Collingwood improved since his debut? Has Harmison made any progress? Most players around the world improve over time, however, in Englands case the majority of them have either stayed the same or regressed. One could only use Pietersen as an example of progress made. I mean seriously, how long has Cook been batting with exactly the same technical flaws that were discovered in the Ashes of 2006/07? I mean youd think he would have ironed them out by now.

AFAIC, we have gone on for far too long thinking that this is the best batting lineup in the country and that there is no one else better in county cricket. However, our batting has failed us series after series after series and it has got to the point where wholesale changes need to be made. Cook hasnt been dropped since his debut, and if he fails for this series, he needs to go back to county cricket to get his flaws ironed out. I'd be tempted to push him down the order during this series, as hes had most of his success at 3 and his technique is not good enough to last the new ball. Collingwood has to go after the Ashes irrespective of how he does. Bell should be replaced by Shah for the next game. I really would like to see a revamped middle order.

AWTA, except I don't know who'd open instead of Cook from the current squad, so he's probably going to stay there for the next 3 games. Bearing in mind our series after the Ashes is in SA, the revamping probably has to happen at the start of the home series against WI.

On the bowling front, I read elsewhere that in 2008 Anderson took 46 test wickets at a smidge under 30, whereas Harmy took 6 at 57. So guess who's a fixture in the side again. Let's hope no-one gives Jimmy the ICL's phone number just yet.

 

[NUFAN]

Awesome work Windies, love it!!

 

[Bob Bamber]

Maybe without the responsibility of captaincy Vaughan may hit a return to form...

The misguided tour party is being shown up though at the moment. 3 spinners... one replacement batsman. We've got two players backing up Panesar, and yet only Shah is backing up one to six. Shah comes in for Bell, and I think Swann replaces Panesar for test two (as much as I'd like to see Rashid).

Much bigger problems with Collingwood, who has an amazing ability to turn up when he needs to, not when England need him to. Cook I think is worth percevering with, he needs a big score soon though. Amazingly Prior seems the least problematic selection at the moment. And the other area that I think needs addressing is the fourth seamer spot. I don't think Harmison has it anymore, he blows too hot and cold. Anderson, good as he can be, just isn't good enough when the conditions aren't suiting him. He looks a million dollars at times, but at others he can get canned all over the place. I don't know the solution to it really. I'd love to see Simon Jones back, I think he has everything that Anderson has, and he's better when conditions don't suit.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Maybe without the responsibility of captaincy Vaughan may hit a return to form...

The misguided tour party is being shown up though at the moment. 3 spinners... one replacement batsman. We've got two players backing up Panesar, and yet only Shah is backing up one to six. Shah comes in for Bell, and I think Swann replaces Panesar for test two (as much as I'd like to see Rashid).

Much bigger problems with Collingwood, who has an amazing ability to turn up when he needs to, not when England need him to. Cook I think is worth percevering with, he needs a big score soon though. Amazingly Prior seems the least problematic selection at the moment. And the other area that I think needs addressing is the fourth seamer spot. I don't think Harmison has it anymore, he blows too hot and cold. Anderson, good as he can be, just isn't good enough when the conditions aren't suiting him. He looks a million dollars at times, but at others he can get canned all over the place. I don't know the solution to it really. I'd love to see Simon Jones back, I think he has everything that Anderson has, and he's better when conditions don't suit.

What absolute bollocks.

 

[roseboy64]

Ryan Hinds in the 14 for Dale Richard is the latest.

 

[NUFAN]

Man Nash is doing fantastically for West Indies.

The way he bats makes him an ideal number 6. He was going nowhere for QLD so this move has been amazing.

I really think England ought to find another opening batsman who doesn't edge the ball all the time. Cook can't cut it for now.

 

[Athlai]

'Dear Cook,

Please consider moving to New Zealand, we won't drop you from the Test team or complain about you if you are only averaging 30 odd.

Love,
Athlai'