*Official* England in West Indies

[sammy2]

http://www.cricketwithballs.com/wp-content/uploads//2009/02/bringontheashes.png

 

[GIMH]

No, I've watched him captain also, and I did agree that he is better than Ponting, which in itself is a compliment to his leadership skills. The only problem I have is that his batting failures should not be papered over by his captaincy skills.

And yes, I do stand by the fact that without Fred, Ashes 2005, Vaughan would have ended up just as an average captain who had his run in the team.

Does anyone think Fleming was an average captain?

 

[pup11]

No, I've watched him captain also, and I did agree that he is better than Ponting, which in itself is a compliment to his leadership skills. The only problem I have is that his batting failures should not be papered over by his captaincy skills.

And yes, I do stand by the fact that without Fred, Ashes 2005, Vaughan would have ended up just as an average captain who had his run in the team.

I don't think being a better test captain than Ponting is much of a compliment tbh, any decent captain is expected to be better than Ponting as a test captain (and this is coming from one of the biggest Ricky Ponting fan).

Anyways there is no doubt that Vaughan' batting feel apart quite badly once he took over captaincy, but he as a captain was awesome, he built a team that were winning and winning consistently, and Freddie though was an important player for his side, he was far from the only key player.

Tresco, Strauss, Jones, Harmison, Hoggard, Thorpe, Giles, all were contributing at some point of time or the other to the winning English side, and you certainly can't give the whole credit for a team' success to a single player.

 

[Athlai]

Does anyone think Fleming was an average captain?

My Indian mate does, but that is besides the point.

 

[andruid]

I don't think being a better test captain than Ponting is much of a compliment tbh, any decent captain is expected to be better than Ponting as a test captain (and this is coming from one of the biggest Ricky Ponting fan).

Anyways there is no doubt that Vaughan' batting feel apart quite badly once he took over captaincy, but he as a captain was awesome, he built a team that were winning and winning consistently, and Freddie though was an important player for his side, he was far from the only key player.

Tresco, Strauss, Jones, Harmison, Hoggard, Thorpe, Giles, all were contributing at some point of time or the other to the winning English side, and you certainly can't give the whole credit for a team' success to a single player.

Exxageration methinks.

 

[pup11]

Exxageration methinks.

Maybe, but his batting post him taking up the captaincy was nothing like it was prior to that.

 

[Uppercut]

Maybe, but his batting post him taking up the captaincy was nothing like it was prior to that.

Actually it was exactly like everything prior to that, bar about one year.

 

[Precambrian]

Does anyone think Fleming was an average captain?

Fleming was a good captain who made excellent use of the resources available to him.

 

[Precambrian]

I don't think being a better test captain than Ponting is much of a compliment tbh, any decent captain is expected to be better than Ponting as a test captain (and this is coming from one of the biggest Ricky Ponting fan).

Anyways there is no doubt that Vaughan' batting feel apart quite badly once he took over captaincy, but he as a captain was awesome, he built a team that were winning and winning consistently, and Freddie though was an important player for his side, he was far from the only key player.

Tresco, Strauss, Jones, Harmison, Hoggard, Thorpe, Giles, all were contributing at some point of time or the other to the winning English side, and you certainly can't give the whole credit for a team' success to a single player.

Almost similar views that I share.

However despite the players like Tresco, Simon Jones, Harmy, Hogga etc, it was the rise of Fred that finally brought a semblance of balance as well as an aura of ruthlessness to the English side. Vaughan made good use of the excellent players he had. His captaincy was good, but not as good as some people think in this forum.

 

[Evermind]

Zaltzman talks about the test:

"If Owais Shah does not play in the second Test, he would be fully justified in rifling through Ian Bell’s bag to see if Edgy from Edgbaston possesses incriminating photographs of the selectors dressed up like Douglas Jardine and the Nawab of Pataudi at a Bodyline-themed orgy."

Cricinfo - Blogs - The Confectionery Stall - England's 24-carat debacle

 

[Furball]

I know this is manipulation of stats to prove a point, but remove Bell's 9 Tests against Bangladesh and Pakistan and he averages 32 from 37 Tests.

Pretty abysmal.

 

[GIMH]

I don't mind Tests against Bangladesh being removed, but don't really think it's fair to get rid of Pakistan. Yes, they were poor when he scored 3 tons against them in 06, but in 05 they were bloody good and he didn't do too bad IIRC

 

[Furball]

I don't mind Tests against Bangladesh being removed, but don't really think it's fair to get rid of Pakistan. Yes, they were poor when he scored 3 tons against them in 06, but in 05 they were bloody good and he didn't do too bad IIRC

It's more to highlight how poorly he's done against everyone else. Had a great run of form against them in 2006, but in 37 tests against the other 6 top sides, he averages 32. That's pretty dire by anyone's standards.

 

[tooextracool]

Almost similar views that I share.

However despite the players like Tresco, Simon Jones, Harmy, Hogga etc, it was the rise of Fred that finally brought a semblance of balance as well as an aura of ruthlessness to the English side. Vaughan made good use of the excellent players he had. His captaincy was good, but not as good as some people think in this forum.

That would be doing a major disservice to Graham Thorpe. Ive said it before and I will say it again, the England side of 2004-05>>>than the side that won the Ashes. Try counting the number of games that Thorpe was almost directly responsible for winning in the build up to the Ashes, I implore you to. Fred played a minimal role in the caribbean and and he didnt bowl in the summer against NZ. His performance in 2004 are overrated, he did well, but Thorpe was the one that held the batting together.

 

[Pothas]

Yeah Thorpe was a very good test batsman, maybe even great. It is such as shame that him and Pietersen never played a test together. England batting with Strauss, Trescothick, Vaughan, Pietersen and Thorpe sounds very strong indeed.

 

[tooextracool]

Zaltzman talks about the test:





Cricinfo - Blogs - The Confectionery Stall - England's 24-carat debacle

Bell will be dropped, theres no if anymore. I dont care how stupid the selectors are, you dont go around retaining batting cards that have been dismissed for 51 against the 8th best side in the world. Shah in for Bell.

 

[Son Of Coco]

I really think Michael Vaughan's golden year was a fluke. If the Aussie fielders hadn't momentarily forgotten how to catch it wouldn't even be there. Check out his FC average in addition to SS's stats and it looks quite ridiculously anomalous.

He's one of the "pretty but useless" type players that I can't stand. Commentators and pundits are so busy touching themselves over his cover drive that they forget he scores ****-all runs.

Yes he's definitely one the purists love to slobber over while denouncing people who bat like Hayden, Gilchrist, and Pietersen as bat swinging savages.

I know which players I'd prefer on the team.

 

[pup11]

Yeah Thorpe was a very good test batsman, maybe even great. It is such as shame that him and Pietersen never played a test together. England batting with Strauss, Trescothick, Vaughan, Pietersen and Thorpe sounds very strong indeed.

Its a shame that Ian Bell was prefered over him in 2005 Ashes over someone like Thrope imo.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Cozier's take on the win.

Worth noting that he states that Gayle made his Test in 2000 against England. Now I'm not a qualified journalist, but I do know that Gayle debuted against Zimababwe in 2000, before that series. Cozier needs to retire.

 

[Precambrian]

Cozier's take on the win.

Worth noting that he states that Gayle made his Test in 2000 against England. Now I'm not a qualified journalist, but I do know that Gayle debuted against Zimababwe in 2000, before that series. Cozier needs to retire.

Perhaps he didn't put the word "away" in front of test debut. (Considering he starts the para with "Gayle's first tour was to England......)

Perhaps he is Richard Mk II and deems Zimbabwe as not worthy of test status.

Perhaps he is just too old to retire.