Ponting not a complete batsman - Harbhajan

[Uppercut]

Lara isn't a complete batsman either. He got dismissed 15 times by Glenn McGrath, not to mention the hold Andre Nel had over him. He can't truly be considered a great because he never managed to conquer those two bowlers. As for Tendulkar, you only have to look at his record against Murali and Jason Gillespie to see that he's blatantly not an all-time great. It's absurd to even suggest that a man with such an incomplete record is in the top drawer of batsmen.

 

[Top_Cat]

Lara isn't a complete batsman either. He got dismissed 15 times by Glenn McGrath, not to mention the hold Andre Nel had over him. He can't truly be considered a great because he never managed to conquer those two bowlers. As for Tendulkar, you only have to look at his record against Murali and Jason Gillespie to see that he's blatantly not an all-time great. It's absurd to even suggest that a man with such an incomplete record is in the top drawer of batsmen.

Has an awful record against Allan Donald too. Clearly can't play pace.

 

[Anil]

Just because he plays for so long and takes a lot of wickets, it won't mean he is a complete bowler. Unless he somehow drastically improves himself, he won't go down as a great bowler.

yep, kumble has 619 wickets, he was one of the exceptional bowlers of this era but he is really not an all-time great...600 wickets is not a ticket to all-time greatness...

 

[tooextracool]

Lara isn't a complete batsman either. He got dismissed 15 times by Glenn McGrath, not to mention the hold Andre Nel had over him. He can't truly be considered a great because he never managed to conquer those two bowlers. As for Tendulkar, you only have to look at his record against Murali and Jason Gillespie to see that he's blatantly not an all-time great. It's absurd to even suggest that a man with such an incomplete record is in the top drawer of batsmen.

Not really sure how Nel is relevant in this case. After all in all the games in which the 2 played against each other, Lara only had scores off 202, 5, 72,11, 115, 86, 34, 6, 196, 176, 13 and 4.

Anyways, Ponting simply hasnt proven himself regularly against the best spinners in the world, so its rather ill-informed to be making statements like 'hes one of the best players of spin out there' or something along the lines, especially when hes looked dismal on turning tracks against India. As i mentioned earlier, the only real evidence that there is about Ponting even being competent against the turning ball is a couple of knocks in SL nearly a decade ago. If that makes someone good against spin, well then Robin Smith could also be considered as such.

 

[tooextracool]

And I would rate Mendis better than Kumble at any point.

Wow talk about jumping the gun a little bit. Just a little. Heres a guy whos played a sum total of 1 test series, that at home in SL and he is considered better than someone who has taken 600 wickets.

 

[Precambrian]

we should be careful not to let this moron morph into the unofficial spokesman for the indian team and even its individual players(like defending tendulkar against gilchrist's innuendos)...the bcci should muzzle him somehow so he can't rant and rail like this all the time...while ponting may not be a complete batsman, harbhajan has certainly proved to be a complete tool...

Yeah, and not a sharp one too. It's sad that Punter will probably never come up against Bhajji in tests.

 

[Precambrian]

Wow talk about jumping the gun a little bit. Just a little. Heres a guy whos played a sum total of 1 test series, that at home in SL and he is considered better than someone who has taken 600 wickets.

To know whether the rice has boiled enough, one does not need to taste the entire vessel.

 

[tooextracool]

I'd rank him behind Clarke and Hayden as a player of spin but ahead of most Australian players. Against pace bowling I'd take him ahead of anyone.

Personally I think Katich is unquestionably the best player of spin in the side, hes played innings that some of the other players in the side can only dream off. I would also put Hussey ahead of Ponting against spin.

 

[Indipper]

To know whether the rice has boiled enough, one does not need to taste the entire vessel.

The rice might not be done in some parts of the pot. The part you're sampling could give you the wrong impression about that.

 

[Precambrian]

The rice might not be done in some parts of the pot. The part you're sampling could give you the wrong impression about that.

Ha Ha, an infallible logic practised for centuries in the kitchens of (South)India.

 

[Ikki]

Ponting averages 20.86 in India after playing 12 tests. Sachin and Lara, for example, are two batsmen more or less from his era who didn't average less than 36 in any country...So, that's what he meant by saying Ponting's record is less complete ; though he didn't say that Ponting's overall record is not as impressive as Sachin's or Lara's (or for that matter, anyone else's)...Yes, Ponting's overall record (though his cricketing career has not yet been as long as Sachin's or Lara's) is as impressive as them, but that was not his point.

End of my argument. Probably you will come with a one page long counter argument, but I'm not interested in that.

It's not about a counter-argument. It's about sense.

Ponting has 1 poor record and only away. Overall he averages almost 50 against the the same side he averages 20s against away. Whilst Tendulkar is not only poor away from S.Africa, he is poor at home as well - he also has many 40s and a 30. In every other country aside from India, Ponting averages in the 60s away - England in the 40s and all others above 50. Garry Sobers has an even poorer kind of record with 25 overall against a country and 15 away at that country (NZ), is he less complete than Ponting or Tendulkar or Lara? See, this is arbitrary picking and choosing going on.

By this, flawed, mentality: Alan Davidson is better than Malcolm Marshall, Dennis Lillee, Richard Hadlee and Glenn McGrath because he doesn't have even ONE place where he averages above 30 (in fact 25), but Malcolm Marshall, Dennis Lillee, Richard Hadlee and Glenn McGrath ALL do.

Get it now?

 

[silentstriker]

A small point: Averaging 20 for a all time great is like averaging 50+ for a bowler. Other than that, I am not getting into this again.

 

[Ikki]

A small point: Averaging 20 for a all time great is like averaging 50+ for a bowler. Other than that, I am not getting into this again.

LOL, then what is averaging in the 20s overall and averaging 15 away? How about low 30s? And didn't you say Sobers is better than Tendulkar? And hey Davidson > McGrath.

I think I caught your hand in the cookie jar Manan - and a few others too.

 

[Ikki]

Has an awful record against Allan Donald too. Clearly can't play pace.

And have you seen Sachin's 3rd/4th innings record? He's so incomplete.

 

[Top_Cat]

And have you seen Sachin's 3rd/4th innings record? He's so incomplete.

Purely for posting that song.

 

[inbox24]

And have you seen Sachin's 3rd/4th innings record? He's so incomplete.

That song reminds me of 2005.

 

[Ikki]

Purely for posting that song.

Hahahaha.

 

[honestbharani]

Lara isn't a complete batsman either. He got dismissed 15 times by Glenn McGrath, not to mention the hold Andre Nel had over him. He can't truly be considered a great because he never managed to conquer those two bowlers. As for Tendulkar, you only have to look at his record against Murali and Jason Gillespie to see that he's blatantly not an all-time great. It's absurd to even suggest that a man with such an incomplete record is in the top drawer of batsmen.

I have seen him take so many hundreds off McWarne... Seen him own RSA when Nel was bowling well...... Had one bad series against Allan Donald away from home.....



Seriously, Kaz... The argument is very simple.. 12 tests is a big enough sample and for him to average only 20 IS abysmal.. I don't hold it against him as every player as his own achilles heel BUT the fact is from a purely statistical PoV (obv. I dont believe stats tell much, but that is just me) Ponting's record is less complete than Lara or Sachin..



I have said it before though, my rating of him is not affected by this at all...

 

[Ikki]

Seriously, Kaz... The argument is very simple.. 12 tests is a big enough sample and for him to average only 20 IS abysmal.. I don't hold it against him as every player as his own achilles heel BUT the fact is from a purely statistical PoV (obv. I dont believe stats tell much, but that is just me) Ponting's record is less complete than Lara or Sachin..

LMAO, are you reading what I am writing? Let me go over it again very simply:

Ponting:

India: Home 79.35; Away 20.85; Overall 47.02

Sobers:

New Zealand: Home 36.14; Away 15.10; Overall 23.76

So Ponting is more complete than Sobers, right? And if so, then Tendulkar and Lara are more complete than both, right?

It's hard to believe anyone who possesses a simple grasp of mathematics would conclude that Ponting is less complete:

This argument being brought forth is akin to:

Batsman A: Averages 80 in every country but 20 in Country B.
Bastman B: Averages 40 in every country.

So just because in one country Batsman A/Ponting does poorly he is less "complete" even though you are conveniently forgetting that in ALL other instances combined Batsman A/Ponting is much superior to Batsman B/Tendulkar.

How about thinking it like this: Tendulkar is sub 50 in 5 countries, Ponting is only sub 50 in 3 (and one of them he only played 1 innings against)?

Averaging 30 against a country is poor. Not as poor as 20, but certainly poor for an all-time great - and the distinction between the two is laughable considering neither averages would help their countries out in a test series. Essentially, you are stacking up 1 away country for Ponting and saying that is STILL poorer than Tendulkar who averages in the 30s both home and away against S.Africa. When even mathematically, Ponting's worst test country is STILL by way some way stronger than Tendulkar's worst. (47 vs 35). Let's not even start on Lara who averages in the 30s away at TWO countries and averages in the 30s overall against India.

 

[Jono]

Kazaholic changed his forum name?