Ponting not a complete batsman - Harbhajan

[FaaipDeOiad]

Ponting is a good player of spin when set, and a phenomenal player of pace bowling.

He's not a great player of spin, but he's not as bad as some make out either. He has his moments where he struggles with it, and when Ponting is out of form, he's very vulnerable against spin early in his innings. There's no way he's a "poor" player of spin though, he's played enough innings of note against spin bowling to put that to bed. Hell, even this tour of India he wasn't bad. It certainly wasn't his greatest series but it wasn't exactly a miserable failure either, he made a couple of notable scores. There's no way a poor player of spin bowling would dominate guys like Murali the way Ponting has at times. I'd rank him behind Clarke and Hayden as a player of spin but ahead of most Australian players. Against pace bowling I'd take him ahead of anyone.

In terms of whether or not that makes him a "complete" batsman, I guess that depends on your definition. I don't think anyone is a "complete" batsman if that means making tons of runs at a high average across all conditions and against all bowlers. Everyone has their weaker points, either statistically or based on anecdotes or whatever. In terms of proving himself in varying conditions and against bowling of all kinds and in different match situations though, Ponting is pretty complete AFAIC.

 

[Precambrian]

Hmm. This is how I look at it: Mendis might look to be a better spinner than Kumble but I wouldn't pick him ahead of Kumble just yet - if he were to still play and were in decent form. Same goes for Ponting who has made much more runs against the same sides with the same spinners.

Haha, a small detail forgotten, Sri Lankan players, esp Jayawardene and Sanga are superb players of spin.

And I would rate Mendis better than Kumble at any point.

And while Ponting's been reasonably successful in Sri Lanka, his continued failure in India does not make him the best player of spin in conditions suiting it. He is a good one, but I'd reserve best for Hayden, Probably Martyn as well.

 

[Precambrian]

Ponting is a good player of spin when set, and a phenomenal player of pace bowling.

He's not a great player of spin, but he's not as bad as some make out either. He has his moments where he struggles with it, and when Ponting is out of form, he's very vulnerable against spin early in his innings. There's no way he's a "poor" player of spin though, he's played enough innings of note against spin bowling to put that to bed. Hell, even this tour of India he wasn't bad. It certainly wasn't his greatest series but it wasn't exactly a miserable failure either, he made a couple of notable scores. There's no way a poor player of spin bowling would dominate guys like Murali the way Ponting has at times. I'd rank him behind Clarke and Hayden as a player of spin but ahead of most Australian players. Against pace bowling I'd take him ahead of anyone.

In terms of whether or not that makes him a "complete" batsman, I guess that depends on your definition. I don't think anyone is a "complete" batsman if that means making tons of runs at a high average across all conditions and against all bowlers. Everyone has their weaker points, either statistically or based on anecdotes or whatever. In terms of proving himself in varying conditions and against bowling of all kinds and in different match situations though, Ponting is pretty complete AFAIC.

This was his best chance to shut his detractors' mouths for good regarding his ability to play in Indian conditions. However but for a first innings 100 on a 1st day pitch, and for a well-compiled 80odd on a road, he hardly looked the part. I am not saying he is a poor player of spin, hell no, but he isn't good either. I'd say mediocre.

But no doubting his ability against pace, (though quirkly Ishant has done him in with bounce)

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Actually, on that note, I think Hayden is somewhat overrated as a player of spin.

He's certainly a good player of spin, but a lot of the really high ratings are essentially based off one series. He's had success against spin outside of the 2001 India tour but not enough to really set him aside as a "great" player of spin bowling.

Somewhat overrated against spin and somewhat underrated against pace, at least by some.

 

[Precambrian]

Actually, on that note, I think Hayden is somewhat overrated as a player of spin.

He's certainly a good player of spin, but a lot of the really high ratings are essentially based off one series. He's had success against spin outside of the 2001 India tour but not enough to really set him aside as a "great" player of spin bowling.

Somewhat overrated against spin and somewhat underrated against pace, at least by some.

Hugely disagree.

Not just because he had a superb year in 2001.

Because he failing in the susbequent tours is mainly due to him getting out rather early, before spin is even introduced.

We saw that this series also. He was getting out to Zak, esp in the first two matches. Then he decided to grind in, see off the new ball, and once spin came, was at ease. He said that before the match too, that he feels most comfortable once the ball has lost its shine.

And his 4th innings 70odd at Nagpur was a mini-classic one, Nothing could stop him, not even Sehwag's defensive outside leg stump line, which he thwarted ala-Tendulkarly coming down the track way down the leg side and thwacking it against the spin to long on. Bhajji too wasn't fully confident when he was on. He eventually fell in pursuit of quick runs, but had it been not a hopeless situation for Australia, I bet he'd gone to make a huge hundred.

That said, he has problems against the swinging ball. A chink which was prevalent in the 2005 Ashes, and even in the first two games in India, where he was done in by swing of Zaheer.

 

[Jono]

Was batting well, but even if you discount the second drop where he tried to reverse sweet, he was still dropped off Harbhajan's first over.

I personally think Clarke is a better player of spin bowling than Hayden too.

 

[Precambrian]

Was batting well, but even if you discount the second drop where he tried to reverse sweet, he was still dropped off Harbhajan's first over.

I personally think Clarke is a better player of spin bowling than Hayden too.

Those drops wouldnt have materialised had Hayden was not going for quick runs. I always regard it as a form of panic in Hayden when he plays those Un-Haydos shots.

Clarke is a bit overrated as a good player of spin. He has (atleast early in the innings) this exaggerated leg movement across the stumps, and which could cost him a few lbws. He is definitely NOT a better player than Hayden regards spin, but DEFINITELY better than Ponting.

 

[silentstriker]

Ponting is a good player of spin when set, and a phenomenal player of pace bowling.

Yea, I agree. My only contention was 'one of the best' comment. He is certainly a good player of any type of bowling, and phenomenal against pace.

 

[Furball]

Just what CW needs, another Ricky Ponting is/isn't an all-time great thread.

Whether he's an all time great is purely down to personal opinion of what constitutes an all time great.

What can be legitimately argued is that Ponting's record is less complete when compared with other great batsmen of his era.

 

[Ikki]

What can be legitimately argued is that Ponting's record is less complete when compared with other great batsmen of his era.

Such as?

And when you name them, could you please explain why those players have more complete records. Thanks.

 

[weldone]

Such as?

And when you name them, could you please explain why those players have more complete records. Thanks.

Ponting averages 20.86 in India after playing 12 tests. Sachin and Lara, for example, are two batsmen more or less from his era who didn't average less than 36 in any country...So, that's what he meant by saying Ponting's record is less complete ; though he didn't say that Ponting's overall record is not as impressive as Sachin's or Lara's (or for that matter, anyone else's)...Yes, Ponting's overall record (though his cricketing career has not yet been as long as Sachin's or Lara's) is as impressive as them, but that was not his point.

End of my argument. Probably you will come with a one page long counter argument, but I'm not interested in that.

 

[weldone]

Harbhajan's comment is meaningless and a stupid attempt to reaffirm the cricketing world that he owns Ponting...Why should he make such a comment when the whole world knows for sure that Ponting is his bunny?

While Harbhajan is nowhere near as good a bowler as Ponting is as a batsman, still the fact remains that Ponting is his bunny...And the poor chap, even after obtaining 300 test wickets; doesn't know that it's always better to let your actions speak for you, specially when you don't possess a gift of the gab.

 

[Anil]

we should be careful not to let this moron morph into the unofficial spokesman for the indian team and even its individual players(like defending tendulkar against gilchrist's innuendos)...the bcci should muzzle him somehow so he can't rant and rail like this all the time...while ponting may not be a complete batsman, harbhajan has certainly proved to be a complete tool...

 

[JBH001]

Harbhajan really needs to keep his mouth shut - his best friends and family need to put up a sign on his door at home so that he reads it before going out into the world.

As some have already said, Harbhajan is far from a complete bowler, and come to that is more of a home track bully than anything else. A competent but over-rated bowler.

As to Punter, his relative failure in India means little. He has been the dominant batsman in world cricket for the last few years and that will likely return in the home series versus NZ and SA. I still dont know if I would have him in my all-time Australian XI (it would be a toss-up between GC and Ponting) but, at this stage, that decision is essentially subjective. He has certainly done enough in his career to merit a place and then some. In any case, I doubt that any player succeeds everywhere and in all conditions and circumstances. That particular standard is arbitrary and cannot be reasonably justified.

I think Punter a good player of spin bowling, despite his tendency to hard hands and to reach for the ball - especially early in his innings. But having watched a couple of his battles with Murali over the years (which seems to bring out the best in both of them) I dont think you can credibly argue that he is a poor player of spin bowling. The 'test' that he show his competence against very good/great spinners on 4th innings 'spitters' is one that is likely to be failed by many great batsman. And the same applies to the best players of pace bowling on bouncy greentops. (Although we sadly rarely see pitches of either kind anymore.) He may not be exceptional against spin but he is certainly good enough. I agree that only Hayden and Clarke are appreciably better against spin - although interestingly Clarke has a lower average than Ponting in this series and was dropped 3 times en route to his only 100 in the series. For all that I think Clarke possesses the better technique against spin and in time that should reflect where it really counts, on the scoreboard.

Returning again to Harbhajan he would do better to just work on his own bowling.

 

[PhoenixFire]

Ponting averages 20.86 in India after playing 12 tests. Sachin and Lara, for example, are two batsmen more or less from his era who didn't average less than 36 in any country...So, that's what he meant by saying Ponting's record is less complete ; though he didn't say that Ponting's overall record is not as impressive as Sachin's or Lara's (or for that matter, anyone else's)...Yes, Ponting's overall record (though his cricketing career has not yet been as long as Sachin's or Lara's) is as impressive as them, but that was not his point.

End of my argument. Probably you will come with a one page long counter argument, but I'm not interested in that.

Exaaaactly. No more needs to be said IMO.

 

[quick4mindia]

Threads like this are uncalled for tbh. Ponting will go down in history as an all-time great, Harbhajan won't.

That being said, Harbhajan does have his number, and anyone who tries to argue otherwise is in denial. Ponting should stop going out to him, otherwise Harbhajan will keep having a chance to act like an idiot like this and be an arrogant tool. He's already a dickhead, stop giving him grounds to be an even bigger one Ricky.

Bhajji is still 28 and may play for 7-8 more years and it is good enough time to to add another 300.
Like it or not........this guy can end up being one of the greats

 

[silentstriker]

Bhajji is still 28 and may play for 7-8 more years and it is good enough time to to add another 300.
Like it or not........this guy can end up being one of the greats

Just because he plays for so long and takes a lot of wickets, it won't mean he is a complete bowler. Unless he somehow drastically improves himself, he won't go down as a great bowler.

He can be deadly if the pitch suits him and he is having a good day, competent generally in India, and can be economical if necessary. That's pretty much it. He has been very ineffective almost everywhere outside of India.

Great bowler he is far from. Very far.




VERY far.

 

[quick4mindia]

Just because he plays for so long and takes a lot of wickets, it won't mean he is a complete bowler. Unless he somehow drastically improves himself, he won't go down as a great bowler.

He can be deadly if the pitch suits him and he is having a good day, competent generally in India, and can be economical if necessary. That's pretty much it. He has been very ineffective almost everywhere outside of India.

Great bowler he is far from. Very far.




VERY far.

Nowhere did i say How complete bowler he is. To take 600 wickets you need to play long and not every Tom Dick and Harry takes 600 wickets in test cricket.

 

[Sanz]

Ponting averages 20.86 in India after playing 12 tests. Sachin and Lara, for example, are two batsmen more or less from his era who didn't average less than 36 in any country...So, that's what he meant by saying Ponting's record is less complete ; though he didn't say that Ponting's overall record is not as impressive as Sachin's or Lara's (or for that matter, anyone else's)...Yes, Ponting's overall record (though his cricketing career has not yet been as long as Sachin's or Lara's) is as impressive as them, but that was not his point.

End of my argument. Probably you will come with a one page long counter argument, but I'm not interested in that.

Hehe..One possible counter argument is list of every bowler Ponting has faced in India except Bhajji and Ishant.

 

[Top_Cat]

Hehe..One possible counter argument is list of every bowler Ponting has faced in India except Bhajji and Ishant.

And Kumble. He knocked over Ponting pretty regularly in 1998.