***Official Australia in India***

[howardj]

Bit hard for Symonds to pull hie weight NOW when he's not even in the team.

QUOTE]

That had to be one of the most ridiculous statements Roebuck has ever written

The substance of what he said was true.

Symonds, Hayden and Lee need to be part of the leadership group and show the way forward, rather than creating waves.

Those guys are senior players and should be acting as such.

 

[Burgey]

I think you are missing the point here. I never suggest anything about any forum member. I am merely suggesting that the Aussie media continues to write rubbish. Sometimes it is Herald, sometimes it is conn and then Saltu and they are the ones that write more frequently.

But mate, that's the case with all media the world over. It's hardly just endemic to Australia. Check out some of the writings from the Indian media post-Sydney, or indeed anything said or posted by Fox News in the States leading up to the US election.

 

[SJS]

To be fair to him, Dhoni's move could also be to avoid Tendulkar being too exerted. He wants him to be available for atleast till 2011 WC, I think.

Possible.

I do hope, he had a talk with Sachin who is known to be cool in such matters but it would be good to say to him "boss, I think I am going to go and have a bash. If it works fine, if it doesn't you take over". - or something to that effect.

Just for information. I all Test matches in the last 12 months, since the tour of Pakistan to India, Sachin has scored 887 Test runs at 63.4 per 100 balls

while Dhoni has scored 568 at 51.1

It was well under 50 till this last test for Dhoni.

For Sachin it includes innings like the painstaking 126 ball 49 to save the Test at Bangalore where Dhoni did not have to bat.

 

[Precambrian]

Possible.

I do hope, he had a talk with Sachin who is known to be cool in such matters but it would be good to say to him "boss, I think I am going to go and have a bash. If it works fine, if it doesn't you take over". - or something to that effect.

Just for information. I all Test matches in the last 12 months, since the tour of Pakistan to India, Sachin has scored 887 Test runs at 63.4 per 100 balls

while Dhoni has scored 568 at 51.1

It was well under 50 till this last test for Dhoni.

For Sachin it includes innings like the painstaking 126 ball 49 to save the Test at Bangalore where Dhoni did not have to bat.

Ooh, that's fantastic. I don't think Sachin used to score like that since his heydays of late 90s!

I think Sachin's discarded his earlier garb of being the accumulator, and has started to take more freedom with his strokeplay since Aus series downunder. And I tend to think this change is due to the fact that there is no person in the dressing room to dictate to him how to play at a particular phase in the match, which I think existed when Greg Chappell used to be the coach. No wonder, during his 20-yr career, he's never come out in the open against anyone, friend or foe, except against Guru Greg, and that means he was never really happy with him. Once Greg stepped down, we've seen the resurgence in his strokeplay. I might sound a bit far fetched here, but the stats seem to suggest more than just coincidence.

 

[Sanz]

But mate, that's the case with all media the world over. It's hardly just endemic to Australia. Check out some of the writings from the Indian media post-Sydney, or indeed anything said or posted by Fox News in the States leading up to the US election.

Agree with that.

 

[howardj]

But mate, that's the case with all media the world over. It's hardly just endemic to Australia. Check out some of the writings from the Indian media post-Sydney, or indeed anything said or posted by Fox News in the States leading up to the US election.

...or anything in the US Presidential Election thread on CW.

That has to be the worst, most biased thread in CW history.

Every post is prefixed with the words, 'oh god did you hear what [insert republican] said...'

 

[Sanz]

...or anything in the US Presidential Election thread on CW.

That has to be the worst, most biased thread in CW history.

Every post is prefixed with the words, 'oh god did you hear what [insert republican] said...'

I am sorry but could you post that in the OT thread, I would like to counter that.

 

[Precambrian]

But its not just Herald though, Malcom Conn writes the similar stuff in 'The Australian' :-

"...Dhoni also appears to have some confusion about the spirit of the game, appealing on the final day for a catch that clearly bounced in front of him. It is the second time he has done it in two Tests....During last summer's tour of Australia he was found to be wearing wicketkeeping gloves which were illegal because the webbing offered too much assistance."

Once again Ignoring the crucial part of the event, agreed the tone wasn't as aggressive as 'Herald but motive was same.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24533513-5001505,00.html

Besides today it is Herald, Yesterday it was SMH, and tomorrow it will be someone else. They continue to write such garbage.

Oh and not to forget same articles are printed in a no. of different newspapers, so even though it is one or two writers writting the articles, but it gets published in different newspapers and hence much broader readership. For example, Malcom Conn's article was pulished in
Foxsports :- http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,24533513-23212,00.html

Nothing new there. We all have seen how every newspaper in Australia, with their online partners joined hand in hand in vilifying and demonising Harbhajan Singh so unilaterally, that he was subject to heavy booing where he went. And when the charge was rubbished by that eminent Judge from NZ, they cried foul and alleged BCCI's hand in that! So this allegation is nothing, but whingeing typical of tabloids.

However, there are exceptions like Peter Roebuck, who have seen through it, and yet command a good readership.

 

[SJS]

Ooh, that's fantastic. I don't think Sachin used to score like that since his heydays of late 90s!

I think Sachin's discarded his earlier garb of being the accumulator, and has started to take more freedom with his strokeplay since Aus series downunder. And I tend to think this change is due to the fact that there is no person in the dressing room to dictate to him how to play at a particular phase in the match, which I think existed when Greg Chappell used to be the coach. No wonder, during his 20-yr career, he's never come out in the open against anyone, friend or foe, except against Guru Greg, and that means he was never really happy with him. Once Greg stepped down, we've seen the resurgence in his strokeplay. I might sound a bit far fetched here, but the stats seem to suggest more than just coincidence.

You are absolutely correct.

Sachin is playing with more freedom than at any other time in his career. Though, as I have written elsewhere, his drives have lost their ferocity and he is hitting fewer sixes. He is making up with brilliant placement and timing and his usual great running between wickets. I have no doubt that if the media would just let him be we might still see a lot of runs from his blade scored in this new mellowed form of stroke play but at a quick clip and an education to those who watch. Remember, we will never see this again once he decides to hang his boots. Indians have no clue what they are asking when they are asking Sachin to do that at the earliest. We will realise his worth when he is gone.

As for Dhoni, he is having his worst phase in batting. His run rate is its worst in his relatively short career. This too is no co-incidence. I think and have written before that after his initial unorthodox but power-packed style had done its bit, people worked him out and he continued playing those strokes with his body completely off balance. Slowly the runs dried up. He tried re-inventing himself by playing defensively. He managed to stay at the wicket but the runs wouldn't come.

I think this Test might be a turning point for him. At Mohali, I was impressed not just with the runs he scored but the manner in which he scored them. He was much more balanced while playing those strokes and he was "sanely aggressive" if you know what I mean. This bodes well for Dhoni. Though I would like to see him do the same where the bowlers are doing a better job than this lot of Australians did. They were terrible. I think Yuvraj, if he was playing, would have scored big runs and at a great pace in Mohali. Not because he is a great Test batsman but because he is a murderer of such toothless attacks.

 

[Precambrian]

But its not just Herald though, Malcom Conn writes the similar stuff in 'The Australian' :-

"...Dhoni also appears to have some confusion about the spirit of the game, appealing on the final day for a catch that clearly bounced in front of him. It is the second time he has done it in two Tests....During last summer's tour of Australia he was found to be wearing wicketkeeping gloves which were illegal because the webbing offered too much assistance."

Once again Ignoring the crucial part of the event, agreed the tone wasn't as aggressive as 'Herald but motive was same.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24533513-5001505,00.html

Besides today it is Herald, Yesterday it was SMH, and tomorrow it will be someone else. They continue to write such garbage.

Oh and not to forget same articles are printed in a no. of different newspapers, so even though it is one or two writers writting the articles, but it gets published in different newspapers and hence much broader readership. For example, Malcom Conn's article was pulished in
Foxsports :- http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,24533513-23212,00.html

Nothing new there. We all have seen how every newspaper in Australia, with their online partners joined hand in hand in vilifying and demonising Harbhajan Singh so unilaterally, that he was subject to heavy booing where he went. And when the charge was rubbished by that eminent Judge from NZ, they cried foul and alleged BCCI's hand in that! So this allegation is nothing, but whingeing typical of tabloids.

However, there are exceptions like Peter Roebuck, who have seen through it, and yet command a good readership.

 

[Precambrian]

You are absolutely correct.

Sachin is playing with more freedom than at any other time in his career. Though, as I have written elsewhere, his drives have lost their ferocity and he is hitting fewer sixes. He is making up with brilliant placement and timing and his usual great running between wickets. I have no doubt that if the media would just let him be we might still see a lot of runs from his blade scored in this new mellowed form of stroke play but at a quick clip and an education to those who watch. Remember, we will never see this again once he decides to hang his boots. Indians have no clue what they are asking when they are asking Sachin to do that at the earliest. We will realise his worth when he is gone.

As for Dhoni, he is having his worst phase in batting. His run rate is its worst in his relatively short career. This too is no co-incidence. I think and have written before that after his initial unorthodox but power-packed style had done its bit, people worked him out and he continued playing those strokes with his body completely off balance. Slowly the runs dried up. He tried re-inventing himself by playing defensively. He managed to stay at the wicket but the runs wouldn't come.

I think this Test might be a turning point for him. At Mohali, I was impressed not just with the runs he scored but the manner in which he scored them. He was much more balanced while playing those strokes and he was "sanely aggressive" if you know what I mean. This bodes well for Dhoni. Though I would like to see him do the same where the bowlers are doing a better job than this lot of Australians did. They were terrible. I think Yuvraj, if he was playing, would have scored big runs and at a great pace in Mohali. Not because he is a great Test batsman but because he is a murderer of such toothless attacks.

Yep, but I think Ponting made a big miscalculation by setting Dhoni ODI-like field settings. Dhoni's play, as you suggested, has more become workman-like. He takes every single available, and waits for a ball suited to his strength to put it to the boundary. And his strengths today are the cut, the pull and the dancing down the track to mediocre spin. Once Ponting put in the deep point, the cut became risk free. And there was no fielder in the deep to make Dhoni think twice before attempting the pull. except maybe a fineleg who was too fine for this type of track. Dhoni revelled in the available opportunity to get himself that 90, and in the next innings, he came at a point when defensive field was the only option available for Ponting. I still believe had Ponting been aggressive regardless of the situation, atleast in the first few overs when Dhoni came in, we'd have seen not only a drop in the scoring, but also a reckless loft or two by Dhoni to up the sagging RR.

 

[SJS]

Yep, but I think Ponting made a big miscalculation by setting Dhoni ODI-like field settings. Dhoni's play, as you suggested, has more become workman-like. He takes every single available, and waits for a ball suited to his strength to put it to the boundary. And his strengths today are the cut, the pull and the dancing down the track to mediocre spin. Once Ponting put in the deep point, the cut became risk free. And there was no fielder in the deep to make Dhoni think twice before attempting the pull. except maybe a fineleg who was too fine for this type of track. Dhoni revelled in the available opportunity to get himself that 90, and in the next innings, he came at a point when defensive field was the only option available for Ponting. I still believe had Ponting been aggressive regardless of the situation, atleast in the first few overs when Dhoni came in, we'd have seen not only a drop in the scoring, but also a reckless loft or two by Dhoni to up the sagging RR.

I also feel that if they wanted to Test Dhoni with short pitched stuff they should not have had Siddle doing it. Lee has the pace to do a better job. He could have had a go at him with a field for it. What they did, bowling too short, not at great pace and without the field for it, just allowed Dhoni to play the strokes with freedom and with time to spare. Once he had done that a few times, he was super confident.

 

[Precambrian]

I also feel that if they wanted to Test Dhoni with short pitched stuff they should not have had Siddle doing it. Lee has the pace to do a better job. He could have had a go at him with a field for it. What they did, bowling too short, not at great pace and without the field for it, just allowed Dhoni to play the strokes with freedom and with time to spare. Once he had done that a few times, he was super confident.

So I think it's safe to assume Dhoni utilised the 2nd innings as sort of "nets" to work himself to good form, notwithstanding his first innings effort. Plus he could also take a very good look at the Aussie bowlers without hurting the team's cause much.

But am glad he allowed Ganguly to come in at No.3. It was good of him to assume that the Australians will not be really comfortable with a Ganguly who has nothing to lose, than a Dravid who has much to prove. That was evident with that straight slog of Lee, with his front leg taken out of the line.

 

[SJS]

So I think it's safe to assume Dhoni utilised the 2nd innings as sort of "nets" to work himself to good form, notwithstanding his first innings effort. Plus he could also take a very good look at the Aussie bowlers without hurting the team's cause much.

But am glad he allowed Ganguly to come in at No.3. It was good of him to assume that the Australians will not be really comfortable with a Ganguly who has nothing to lose, than a Dravid who has much to prove. That was evident with that straight slog of Lee, with his front leg taken out of the line.

At number four you mean. Frankly, I am not as much sold on this left right thing as most people are. I think Tendulkar at three and Dhoni at four may have been even better.

Ganguly is not the great striker of the ball and hitter of sixes as he used to be. Plus he is not the runner between the wickets that Sachin is. Dhoni and Sachin at three and four (even if Dhoni came before Sachin) would have been ideal.

But now that it is done, it doesn't matter. It didn't matter so much then too considering India were planning to bat so long. Irrespective of who came when, with that much time to bat, after Sehwag and Gambhir had taken the lead to close to 400, India was always going to bat Australia out of the game.

 

[Precambrian]

At number four you mean. Frankly, I am not as much sold on this left right thing as most people are. I think Tendulkar at three and Dhoni at four may have been even better.

Ganguly is not the great striker of the ball and hitter of sixes as he used to be. Plus he is not the runner between the wickets that Sachin is. Dhoni and Sachin at three and four (even if Dhoni came before Sachin) would have been ideal.

But now that it is done, it doesn't matter. It didn't matter so much then too considering India were planning to bat so long. Irrespective of who came when, with that much time to bat, after Sehwag and Gambhir had taken the lead to close to 400, India was always going to bat Australia out of the game.

Yes, No.4, my mistake. The strategy behind sending No.4 could've been that he could get some sixers going off Cameron White and Micheal Clarke (who didnt bowl eventually). The LHB RHB thing really slows down the over rate esp when there is a defensive setting, and is not exactly what the Aussie fielders like when under the hot sun. The plan was clear, tire the Aussies as much as possible mentally and physically, and I think it paid off.

 

[honestbharani]

Exactly. That is my point. What you think is what everyone else thinks. It is not true. Not in recent times, not in this series and not even in this last Test. Go back and check for yourself.

Just make sure you include only those innings where both of them played.

I know my pushing the point sounds irritating and probably is for which I apologised to Pnottah already. But trust me I wasn;t doing it to have the last word or just to prove him wrong but just to highlight how so many of them (including myself) can at times form opinions based on perception which are incorrect and not supported by facts. The frenzied style of batting of a player can make him look a faster scorer than the calm stroke play of another.

I think I did a similar analysis once before for Laxman I think when he was dropped from the ODI side and everyone was shocked by the actual stats.

Fair points, SJS, but I guess the move was as psychological as it was practical. It just sends a bit of a message across to the Aussies. Obviously, Sachin could have done what Dhoni did and perhaps even better, but it did send the message. Remember Gilly walking out one down at Chennai in the second innings in 2004 and scoring 40 off 60 odd deliveries. He was not hitting them out of sight, simply placing the ball and running hard, nothing that Katich or Martyn or Clarke would not have done. But when the captain walks out having kept for a while and makes a statement like that, it helps the morale.. Plus, I have heard and read that Sachin doesn't like batting at #3??? He likes 4 in tests and 2 in ODIs but if he has to change it would rather not be batting at #3, I believe... But I am not sure about this.

 

[Pratters]

I thought I had already explained how SJS is misktaken with my post but he goes on with it. Bleh.

 

[Pratters]

You are absolutely correct.

Sachin is playing with more freedom than at any other time in his career. Though, as I have written elsewhere, his drives have lost their ferocity and he is hitting fewer sixes. He is making up with brilliant placement and timing and his usual great running between wickets.

So why is he past his best if he can score at a good S/R and has merely changed the way he plays (which any player can do over a period of time).

 

[thirdumpire]

Ponting is such a douche - him advising Sehwag that he should have walked, when he himself stood his ground during the last series .

And regarding Dhoni's appeals, the aussie media seems to have forgotton the douche claiming for this 'off the turf' one.

Heres Sunny ( he really does love the aussies ) on Ponting :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcbJOkeyKBA

 

[SJS]

Fair points, SJS, but I guess the move was as psychological as it was practical. It just sends a bit of a message across to the Aussies. Obviously, Sachin could have done what Dhoni did and perhaps even better, but it did send the message. Remember Gilly walking out one down at Chennai in the second innings in 2004 and scoring 40 off 60 odd deliveries. He was not hitting them out of sight, simply placing the ball and running hard, nothing that Katich or Martyn or Clarke would not have done. But when the captain walks out having kept for a while and makes a statement like that, it helps the morale.. Plus, I have heard and read that Sachin doesn't like batting at #3??? He likes 4 in tests and 2 in ODIs but if he has to change it would rather not be batting at #3, I believe... But I am not sure about this.

Yes. you have a point and I did think of that but then I think Sachin should have come in at four instead of Ganguly. At that stage with the lead alrady 425, left-right combination argument had no meaning and in any even Ganguly's poor running between the wickets would more than discount any advantage one may think a left hander offered. PLUS as you said, if Sachin doesn't like batting at three he likes five even less