***Official*** South Africa in England

[Scaly piscine]

Most of it plays for Northants nowadays I'm afraid.

Fair play to Sammy tho. He's going to be a very useful player for England. Already seems to have more variation than Monty, if not the huge turn. Given he's essentially a batting all-rounder (at best) his SLA looks pretty decent to my inexpert eye. Mainly bowls quite flat, but had the genitals to toss one up when one of the Morkels had smacked him for a couple of boundaries and got his reward.

Has an overly affectionate realtionship with the pies tho, which might be a worry in warmer climes.

Yep, I was also quite impressed with his variations seeing him on the highlights.

I think given how much he's supposedly improved already this season or so he could develop into a very handy finger spinner - I think he could become more of an effective attacking option than Panesar, who relies on either a bunsen or poor batting. I could actually seeing Patel working someone over and genuinely bowling proper batsmen out.

 

[Richard]

There is no way on Earth Samit Patel is ever going to be close to being as good a spinner in the longer game than MSP, though he might well be a better all-round cricketer.

Patel is no real use as a longer-format spinner and his OD figures have always flattered him and now amazingly enough the same has happened so far at international level.

 

[Prince EWS]

There is no way on Earth Samit Patel is ever going to be close to being as good a spinner in the longer game than MSP

Yeah, I don't think anyone other than Scaly would seriously be suggesting he would, though.

though he might well be a better all-round cricketer.

Yeah, and that's what is crucial here. The last Test team England fielded had Flintoff batting 6 with Ambrose at 7 with Panesar at 11. When you're seen as the fifth bowler by your captain and you're batting 11, your place should be called into question.

Patel is a quality First Class batsman in his own right even if not quite Test standard as a specialist, and after seeing bowl in one day cricket (admittedly not a good way to judge his Test credentials, but still) I think he'd be the perfect fifth bowler for England in Test cricket if they wanted to play four seamers. If he could average in the high 30s to early 40s with the bat at 6 and even just do a holding role, add variation to the attack and average under 45 with the ball, I think he'd offer a lot to the England balance at the moment. In India and Sri Lanka I'd play Panesar in a heartbeat as he'd be a main attacking option, but in spite of his figures, he really isn't going to be one away from the subcontinent.. certainly not in both innings anyway.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Yeah, I don't think anyone other than Scaly would seriously be suggesting he would, though.

If you bothered to read what I actually said - I said he could become a more effective attacking option than Panesar. Patel is over 2 1/2 years younger than Panesar and has a lot more variation. Panesar spins it more but is very poor at attacking decent batsmen on anything but a bunsen. I don't really see Panesar improving much, someone like Patel however already has improved a lot from being barely bowling to being a good 5th/6th bowler and I don't see any reason why he can't keep developing his bowling even further.

 

[Prince EWS]

If you bothered to read what I actually said - I said he could become a more effective attacking option than Panesar.

Yeah, and I don't think anyone will agree with you at the moment, was my point. I could be wrong though.

With the current balance of the England team, there's every argument to suggest Patel would offer a lot more to the team than Panesar in most conditions. But I certainly can't see him being a better overall longer-form bowler than Panesar at any point of his career, in any conditions. That's where we disagree.

 

[Scaly piscine]

More effective attacking option doesn't mean the same as being a better bowler.

 

[popepouri]

Ntini to get the axe soon. I really hope...

 

[pup11]

Ntini to get the axe soon. I really hope...

I would bring in Nel for Ntini, and i would even think of replacing Gibbs with someone else, but why is he opening again, because he had a decent run in Odi cricket when he was batting in the middle order.

 

[pup11]

Some credit should go to Bell too. I thought his innings was extremely good and just what we needed up front. Not often you see an opening partnership ton up either.

Well Bell also have Ntini, Steyn and Morkel to thank for the that, as the bowling on display was pretty poor and inconsistent, but taking nothing away from Bell he was pretty good too.

 

[aussie]

Denly has so far accomplished very, very little in OD cricket.

Its only this season he has really impressed anyone with his opening in domestic OD cricket though. Thats why i saw another season like this playing more innings like he did againts Durham & England have a ODI opener.

Everyone will play the odd good innings from time to time. I haven't seen him bat more than once, but I don't need to to see how he's performed. Unquestionably, he has potential, but I have to doubt that that will be manifested in the one-day game - so far his strength seems to be the longer format..

I struggle to see how gather that his strenght is in the longer form of the gaame ATM.

No, on his failures of the past and present. Little if anything has changed so far.

Ok so you are saying he has looked like a failure in the first 3 ODI's so far & absolutely nothing he has done suggest to that justtttttt maybe Prior can do a decent job @ the top of the order for England?

No. I maintained then and maintain now that he's poor.

Ha, remind me why again...

Collingwood has only recently become that good at ODIs to my foolish standards.

Corrected.

He has?.

His innings in the WC vs SRI & vs IND @ OT last year

They have both done nothing of note and never will. They are simply not fundamentally good batsmen. Nor are they that good at bowling either of course, but they are not and never will be of any use with the bat.

Ha, i was never talking about their batting ability yo sorry i you misunderstood, strictly bowling. Oh and let me guess you see no hope in the 4-man pace attack becoming consistent ODI class becomes Anderson & Harmison are crap & will always be crap..

 

[aussie]

Patel is a quality First Class batsman in his own right even if not quite Test standard as a specialist, and after seeing bowl in one day cricket (admittedly not a good way to judge his Test credentials, but still) I think he'd be the perfect fifth bowler for England in Test cricket if they wanted to play four seamers. If he could average in the high 30s to early 40s with the bat at 6 and even just do a holding role, add variation to the attack and average under 45 with the ball, I think he'd offer a lot to the England balance at the moment. In India and Sri Lanka I'd play Panesar in a heartbeat as he'd be a main attacking option, but in spite of his figures, he really isn't going to be one away from the subcontinent.. certainly not in both innings anyway.

Solid idea, but Patel needs to do a great deal more to be considered for a test spot with his batting. Bowling seems Michael Clarke ish in the ability to pick up wickets, but on the long run wouldn't & shouldn't be threatening to top-quality batsmen.

On the idea of ENG playing 5-bowlers i honestly feel its a luxury ENG & new skipper KP need to have a hard look at since i don't think the correct balance exists for it to work anymore.

FOR me its either 6 bats, Freddie, Keeper & 3 bowlers (either 2 quicks & monty of 3 quicks). The quick men ATM preferably would be Harmison, Anderson, Sidebottom/Jones if he ever is fit again.

FOR 5 bowlers system to work again with Freddie @ 6, Broad needs to develop his bowling in the longer by 10 fold very quickly or Swann would have to replace Panesar as the main spinner to at least give the lower a stable look.

 

[GIMH]

Can't really see Swann being an effective Test bowler, don't think many can which is why we're all a little excited about Patel's emergence.

 

[Richard]

Patel is never going to be as good as Swann as a OD spinner, nor as a spinner in the longer game.

Honestly, people do seem to be going a little OTT about Patel as a bowler suddenly. He could develop into a good all-round cricketer, but that's the summit of it. Getting wickets in the OD game is very, very different to taking them in the FC game.

 

[Richard]

I would bring in Nel for Ntini, and i would even think of replacing Gibbs with someone else, but why is he opening again, because he had a decent run in Odi cricket when he was batting in the middle order.

Gibbs has always been the inverse of AB de Villiers - despite the fact he isn't an opener, SA seem to prefer him as one. And of course, he has had plenty of success there in both forms of the game. However, he wasn't a routine middle-order success either - after going well there for a time 3 years ago or so, he then tailed-off again.

TBH, I don't know that Gibbs has much time left in the international game. His powers have been on the wane for some time - and he was never top-drawer in any case. The trouble with him is that you always know a sensational innings can potentially be just around the corner which means he often gets more chances than he really deserves.

As for Ntini and Nel, well, neither of them have exactly been bowling well recently have they? Nor have Steyn or either of the Morkels ever really bowled well. As I've said a few times now, SA's ODI bowling post-Pollock looks a tadge unsteady TSTL.

 

[Richard]

Its only this season he has really impressed anyone with his opening in domestic OD cricket though. Thats why i saw another season like this playing more innings like he did againts Durham & England have a ODI opener.

Another season of playing 1 good knock in a televised game per season?

No, you need much more than that.

I struggle to see how gather that his strenght is in the longer form of the gaame ATM.

Well neither of them really are currently, sadly, he's struggled in the longer form this season too. But he's never done anything much in the shorter game (and yes, he's played the odd innings here and there, one of which happened to be televised, but that's not doing very much, you need far more than that to be an England prospect).

Ok so you are saying he has looked like a failure in the first 3 ODI's so far & absolutely nothing he has done suggest to that justtttttt maybe Prior can do a decent job @ the top of the order for England?

No, apart from slogging a bit more he's virtually no different now to any previous stint in the ODI team. And no better than the Philip Mustards and Geraint Joneses.

Ha, remind me why again...

His entire ODI career.

Corrected.

Well, if expecting a front-line batsman to average more than early-mid-20s for the most part is foolish, then yes. Otherwise, no.

His innings in the WC vs SRI & vs IND @ OT last year

Good though those innings were, they were very, very a-typical of ODI requirements. Both were based on stopping the rot with a required-rate that was always do-able, rather than scoring quickly. Even playing for England, you won't get the chance to play many innings of that type. And so far that's all that Bopara has shown the ability to do.

Oh and let me guess you see no hope in the 4-man pace attack becoming consistent ODI class becomes Anderson & Harmison are crap & will always be crap..

Probably.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Solid idea, but Patel needs to do a great deal more to be considered for a test spot with his batting.

To be fair to Patel, of our current top six (even if one substitutes Vaughan for Fred), only Pietersen maintains a higher first-class average than him. He's only been playing for five minutes, true, but he wouldn't be the worst pick ever.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Yea, I'd sooner Patel get picked than Bopara, Shah etc.

England aren't blessed in the batting department and looking at his record Patel doesn't appear to be merely a limited overs specialist - he has a good record in both formats.

 

[pasag]

When was the last time England whitewashed an ODI series? Would be massive.

 

[grapedo]

When was the last time England whitewashed an ODI series? Would be massive.

It ain't gonna happen though

 

[pup11]

When was the last time England whitewashed an ODI series? Would be massive.

Well they have only whitewashed a team once in an Odi series through their cricketing history, and that team was Zimbabwe, i cna't exactly remember the year though, anyways it would be shocking if England manages to whitewash the Proteas, but given the way the Proteas are playing that is certainly isn't out of the context.