Guess who's back? Back Again

[Precambrian]

The idea that Flintoff's irresponsibility jinxed England's WC2007 chances is utter nonsense. England were a poor team and were shown to be such a thing, the "Flintoff's antics tightened us up" thing is just an excuse. The same players have performed poorly in ODIs on many other occasions without any Fredalos.

Exactly, the fact is that he ended up being an excuse, despite being such a crucial peg in the team, a person everyone else looks up to for inspiration, hell, a person who captained their nation in the Ashes (to glorious failure). See the moment. It's not about the frequency, but the magnitude. And Freddie was indeed cautioned rather unofficially atleast for his boozing in the past.

John Booth shot Abe Lincoln only one one occasion. Not that the conspirators wouldn't have found another man in case he failed.

Oh, and Coach Fletcher did say Flintoff was given warnings on earlier occassions also. So that negates any argument that this was a one-off case.

 

[Richard]

Exactly, the fact is that he ended up being an excuse, despite being such a crucial peg in the team, a person everyone else looks up to for inspiration, hell, a person who captained their nation in the Ashes (to glorious failure). See the moment. It's not about the frequency, but the magnitude.

It is about the frequency. Shoaib Akhtar has repeatedly "offended" in this way over his career; Flintoff did it once (and the real effect was negligable anyway - unlike the sort of stuff Shoaib has caused in Pakistan). You don't have to be a genius to recognise the difference in amount of damage caused by a one-off offence and serial offences.

And Freddie was indeed cautioned rather unofficially atleast for his boozing in the past.

Oh, and Coach Fletcher did say Flintoff was given warnings on earlier occassions also. So that negates any argument that this was a one-off case.

The causing problems for himself by excessive drinking may not have been one-offs, but the causing problems for everyone else by doing so was.

John Booth shot Abe Lincoln only one one occasion. Not that the conspirators wouldn't have found another man in case he failed.

Umm... OK, a shooting (to kill) can in no way be correlated with some form of one-off morale-dampening incident. You know - once someone's been killed, there's nothing anyone can do to bring them back. Morale can be boosted again. Very, very poor attempt at analogies.

 

[Majin]

Part of the "think he's a **** but love the guy" group so am happy he'll be there

 

[Sanz]

And Freddie was indeed cautioned rather unofficially atleast for his boozing in the past.

Indeed. People start moving goal posts when their favorites are questioned. Freddie will look equally worse if the PCB were in charge of his career.

 

[Richard]

Indeed. People start moving goal posts when their favorites are questioned.

Goalposts don't need moving, they're already in place.

Flintoff, a "favourite" of mine?

Freddie will look equally worse if the PCB were in charge of his career.

So? They're not.

 

[Top_Cat]

Read it. It's printed. Not said.

Too much of "i can't stand him.... Lolz.... He's such a disgrace to cricket... blah blah blah... etc.." going on here about Shoiab. Actually, what is that he has done what Shane Warne has NOT done? In fact Shane Warne has done worse things (bloody hell, he got banned from cricket from a full year for use of diuretics or whatever crap), problems with his national coach, problems with his smoking, libido etc etc. crap crap. Hell, he even got connected with match fixing along with Mark Waugh (though later dropped I think)

However, Shane Warne, when he had a ball in his hand was a master. And Cricket Australia ensured that despite all his misdoings off the field, he had he ball in the hand when it really mattered.

Here is where PCB has failed in case of Akthar. He was a raw talent. And PCB failed to channelise that raw talent into solid performances. Something which a Steve Waugh or an Imran Khan would definitely would have done. There was no mentor for Shoiab Akthar to look up to. No inspiration or reward for his performances. Then such people chase other arenas for recognition. PCB, instead of playing mentor role, played to crowd. And never thought of long term effect or utility of such a player.

I don't really disagree with the central points above re: Warne and Shoaib but no mentors? Wasim and Waqar don't count? Can't say they've been exactly hands-off during Shoaib's career, from everything I've read they've worked rather closely with him even after they retired, particularly Waqar. The PCB deserves every bit of criticism coming their way and it's because of that, the W's tried their hardest to mentor Shaoib. That they failed shouldn't be blamed on them necessarily.

 

[Burgey]

Read it. It's printed. Not said.

Too much of "i can't stand him.... Lolz.... He's such a disgrace to cricket... blah blah blah... etc.." going on here about Shoiab. Actually, what is that he has done what Shane Warne has NOT done? In fact Shane Warne has done worse things (bloody hell, he got banned from cricket from a full year for use of diuretics or whatever crap), problems with his national coach, problems with his smoking, libido etc etc. crap crap. Hell, he even got connected with match fixing along with Mark Waugh (though later dropped I think)

However, Shane Warne, when he had a ball in his hand was a master. And Cricket Australia ensured that despite all his misdoings off the field, he had he ball in the hand when it really mattered.

Here is where PCB has failed in case of Akthar. He was a raw talent. And PCB failed to channelise that raw talent into solid performances. Something which a Steve Waugh or an Imran Khan would definitely would have done. There was no mentor for Shoiab Akthar to look up to. No inspiration or reward for his performances. Then such people chase other arenas for recognition. PCB, instead of playing mentor role, played to crowd. And never thought of long term effect or utility of such a player.

What he's done that Shane Warne hasn't done is, throughout his career, leave his team in the lurch. From time to time he's picked and chosen when to play, where to play and against whom.

The bloke's an enormous talent, no doubt about it. I love watching him bowl - seeing someone, anyone, that quick is an enormously enjoyably part of the game, and he bowled arguably the quickest spell I've ever seen in Perth in about 1999.

As for the off-field stuff, I'd suggest his and Warne's drug problems cancel each other out - both dire, and there's no excuse for Warne or anyone else to get caught up in all that. But when Warne's had personality clashes with team mates like Steve Waugh and Gilchrist, and had the disappointment of losing out in the captaincy and vice-captaincy stakes, he's gotten on with it, kept playing and didn't resort to things like whacking a team mate about the sheds with a cricket bat or sulking off coz he reckoned he didn't like some bloke or other in the team.

Both of them seem to like chasing skirt - fine, good luck to them. Only, when Warne's been caught up in those issues, he's still, if nothing else, performed on the field. I remember when Pakistan were out here last time, and there's photos of Shoaib out on the cans shaking his bon-bon all night long at some pub or club, then missing the next ODI or tour match coz of some injury he's supposed to have. I'm not saying he wasn't injured, but that's got to be a bad look to team mates and supporters.

The unfortunate thing for me is, if the fella wasn't as good a player as he is, I probably wouldn't care if he did all those things. It just seems to me he hasn't got all he can out of himself, and his ability is awesome.

 

[Jono]

Part of the "think he's a **** but love the guy" group so am happy he'll be there

Best group on CW. Better than those societies honouring players who actually care about their cricket. Pffh, who needs to honour that.

 

[Burgey]

Best group on CW. Better than those societies honouring players who actually care about their cricket. Pffh, who needs to honour that.

 

[Top_Cat]

Best group on CW. Better than those societies honouring players who actually care about their cricket. Pffh, who needs to honour that.

Yeah let's face it, in cricket as in life, the person who does everything right is never as interesting or well-loved as the prick who flashes a grin after yet another damn fool idiot 'mistake'.

The uncomfortable truth for some, perhaps those who wish life were only black-and-white, is that Shaoib does actually care about his craft and the game. He wouldn't be as good a bowler as he is otherwise as he's not the same bowler he was when he started; he's improved, broadened his range with unpickable slow-balls, etc. If all he wanted was fame, there's a bunch of things he could have taken up, been successful and gotten that. I think he's just pretty narcissistic and that side of him overwhelms him occasionally.

When he's on the park, he charges in all day with little regard for his own physical welfare which is what throws people off I reckon. Just getting him on the park is the tough bit. His picking and choosing which games to play is incongruous with the professional athlete model we've all grown accustomed to when, in reality, many players were doing exactly that many years ago in more amateur times.

 

[Burgey]

Yeah let's face it, in cricket as in life, the person who does everything right is never as interesting or well-loved as the prick who flashes a grin after yet another damn fool idiot 'mistake'.

The uncomfortable truth for some, perhaps those who wish life were only black-and-white, is that Shaoib does actually care about his craft and the game. He wouldn't be as good a bowler as he is otherwise as he's not the same bowler he was when he started; he's improved, broadened his range with unpickable slow-balls, etc. If all he wanted was fame, there's a bunch of things he could have taken up, been successful and gotten that. I think he's just pretty narcissistic and that side of him overwhelms him occasionally.

When he's on the park, he charges in all day with little regard for his own physical welfare which is what throws people off I reckon. Just getting him on the park is the tough bit. His picking and choosing which games to play is incongruous with the professional athlete model we've all grown accustomed to when, in reality, many players were doing exactly that many years ago in more amateur times.

Must say hadn't really looked at it like that, but it certainly was the case players picked and chose more in the amateur days. As recently as when G Chappell was captain of Australia he missed tours to stay home.
Suppose we just take for granted everyone being available for everything these days.

 

[nightprowler10]

Yeah let's face it, in cricket as in life, the person who does everything right is never as interesting or well-loved as the prick who flashes a grin after yet another damn fool idiot 'mistake'.

The uncomfortable truth for some, perhaps those who wish life were only black-and-white, is that Shaoib does actually care about his craft and the game. He wouldn't be as good a bowler as he is otherwise as he's not the same bowler he was when he started; he's improved, broadened his range with unpickable slow-balls, etc. If all he wanted was fame, there's a bunch of things he could have taken up, been successful and gotten that. I think he's just pretty narcissistic and that side of him overwhelms him occasionally.

When he's on the park, he charges in all day with little regard for his own physical welfare which is what throws people off I reckon. Just getting him on the park is the tough bit. His picking and choosing which games to play is incongruous with the professional athlete model we've all grown accustomed to when, in reality, many players were doing exactly that many years ago in more amateur times.

Hate the guy so never really looked at it this way. Good post.

 

[Sanz]

But when Warne's had personality clashes with team mates like Steve Waugh and Gilchrist, and had the disappointment of losing out in the captaincy and vice-captaincy stakes, he's gotten on with it, kept playing and didn't resort to things like whacking a team mate about the sheds with a cricket bat or sulking off coz he reckoned he didn't like some bloke or other in the team..

And trust me it has more to do with who Warne was dealing with rather than Warne himself and also not to forget the Aussie System. If Imran were around, Shoaib would have been a different player or conversely If Javed Miandad/Zaheer Abbas were playing in Shoaib's era, I have little doubt that they would have been as bad (if not worse) as Shoaib. As for what happened with the Bat (against Asif) and all, we will never know the full truth. Shoaib was involved but to say that Asif and Afridi were the innocent party...really find it very hard to believe.

Shoaib Bashing is the fashion the current times and I can understand the frustration of some cricket fans, but saying stuff like "Hope he breaks some US law and gets 3 year prison sentence' is really moronic and I can't believe people get away with such stuff.

And if Shoaib had harmed the game of cricket so much more than anyone else then there wouldn't be millions of fans lining up to watch him bowl and ready to cheer for him.
Cricket fans are not idiots, who line up to buy tickets to watch him play. Shoaib has not fulfilled his potential as a cricketer dut to the shortcomings in his personality and that's all I can say is wrong with him. Apart from that he is one of the best cricketers I haved watched and without a doubt one of the most entertaining one.

 

[Burgey]

All fair points mate.

 

[GIMH]

The idea that Flintoff's irresponsibility jinxed England's WC2007 chances is utter nonsense. England were a poor team and were shown to be such a thing, the "Flintoff's antics tightened us up" thing is just an excuse. The same players have performed poorly in ODIs on many other occasions without any Fredalos.

Aside from that fact, of course Flintoff has never been a serial misbehaver. He had issues with his weight and fitness a long time ago, but he's never been one to disrupt the team with the way he goes about things nor do stuff which brings shame on the whole game. The Fredalo incident was a one-off error on his part. Flintoff in this respect is totally incomparable to Warne and Shoaib Akhtar.

I've not read Fletcher's book yet, but I believe he suggests that Flintoff drank his way through the 06-07 season, as captain, which really isn't good enough, and I'm possibly his biggest fan on CW

edit - balls, I missed a load of posts. LOL @ me

 

[grapedo]

If the awards are still around, this would be a lock for the skull.

Asif is a gun

 

[Richard]

Yeah let's face it, in cricket as in life, the person who does everything right is never as interesting or well-loved as the prick who flashes a grin after yet another damn fool idiot 'mistake'.

The uncomfortable truth for some, perhaps those who wish life were only black-and-white, is that Shaoib does actually care about his craft and the game. He wouldn't be as good a bowler as he is otherwise as he's not the same bowler he was when he started; he's improved, broadened his range with unpickable slow-balls, etc. If all he wanted was fame, there's a bunch of things he could have taken up, been successful and gotten that. I think he's just pretty narcissistic and that side of him overwhelms him occasionally.

When he's on the park, he charges in all day with little regard for his own physical welfare which is what throws people off I reckon. Just getting him on the park is the tough bit. His picking and choosing which games to play is incongruous with the professional athlete model we've all grown accustomed to when, in reality, many players were doing exactly that many years ago in more amateur times.

I don't think I, for one, have ever suggested Shoaib doesn't care about his bowling. Merely that, for a variety of reasons, the calibre of his bowling is offset by the fact that he is a disruptive influence on his team and has caused great damage to the game, especially in his own country.

When Shoaib is on the park, usually I enjoy seeing him bowl (the exceptions being the occasions he's completely off-the-boil). But I'm not blinded enough by that to want to see him play, because I realise that in the end his being a part of cricket is only ever likely to do more harm than good.

 

[Richard]

Shoaib Bashing is the fashion the current times and I can understand the frustration of some cricket fans, but saying stuff like "Hope he breaks some US law and gets 3 year prison sentence' is really moronic and I can't believe people get away with such stuff.

Err - there's nothing to "get away" with. It's borne not out of frustration at him not fulfilling his potential but realisation that as long as he's involved with the game, he's probably going to do it more harm than good.

And if Shoaib had harmed the game of cricket so much more than anyone else then there wouldn't be millions of fans lining up to watch him bowl and ready to cheer for him.
Cricket fans are not idiots, who line up to buy tickets to watch him play.

Err... wrong. There are plenty and plenty of utter morons in cricket "fan"dom in every country, that much should be patently obvious. From idiots throwing stuff during Mexican Waves and constantly abusing opposition players in Australia, dickheads spitting and hurling stuff on the field in New Zealand, numpties espousing the "monkey" chants in India, rioters (and Shahid Afridi lovers) in Pakistan, the list goes on.

 

[Richard]

I've not read Fletcher's book yet, but I believe he suggests that Flintoff drank his way through the 06-07 season, as captain, which really isn't good enough, and I'm possibly his biggest fan on CW

It's poor, unquestionably, and extremely disappointing - but only once did it lead to an incident of public embarrassment for the whole England team.

 

[Precambrian]

It's poor, unquestionably, and extremely disappointing - but only once did it lead to an incident of public embarrassment for the whole England team.

Whatever. I'd guess had Geraint Jones spiffed that catch of Kasper, you'd said, "Oh that was just one catch missed".

Anywyas, I am really glad he's back, and that he will add a touch of class to Pakistan's pace attack. And he showed his prime is not past him in THAT IPL match against the Daredevils.