Precambrian
Banned
But an average of 36 is very mediocre for an international level batsman in this age.
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Guess who's back? Back Again
- Thread starter silentstriker
- Start date
Precambrian
Banned
Remove Bangladesh and the average dips to 33.71 in 47 test matches! Amazing! Only England has such tolerance of players who are in the team for captaincy than batting. eg- Mike Brearley.
Goughy
Hall of Fame Member
Has a near identical record with the bat as captain as Ganguly.
He was a massive superior captain to Ganguly and had a far superior win/loss record.
So frankly what you are saying is inaccurate.
Precambrian
Banned
Did he really add that value as a cap, i mean Vaughan, to the English team, given his obvious failure with the bat to justify his place in the team for so many years?
It's worth pondering considering the amount of debate Saurav Ganguly generated with comparable figures. And mind you, he too won an 'ashes' of it's kind 2-1 and did a job of retaining it 1-1 also. But he lost his spot jus coz of questions raised at his batting prowess,
It's worth pondering considering the amount of debate Saurav Ganguly generated with comparable figures. And mind you, he too won an 'ashes' of it's kind 2-1 and did a job of retaining it 1-1 also. But he lost his spot jus coz of questions raised at his batting prowess,
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
Did he add value as captain? Did you watch any cricket in 2004 or 2005? Have you ever seen any other England side win so regularly?
Precambrian
Banned
That could be attributed to Flintoff, Harmy and Simon. I admit Vaughan did a good job of bringing them together. But once Simon got injured, and Flint's form tapered away, England also started struggling didn't they? I mean, post the surgery, captained England to a home series loss to India, South Africa, and away loss in Sri Lanka, the cracks had shown, I think the current England team is dependent on players like Flintoff and Peitersen, plus underrated Anderson, etc. And the captain is good only as the team. I believe still that Vaughan is past is peak, long back. And that the argument that his place in the team was as a captain more than as a batsman, in this age, is not really progressive.
BTW, I've been one of the harshest critics of Saurav Ganguly who did a good job of finding and developing a core group of players, but afterwards neglected his batting and got mired in jus clinging onto his place, and finally had the ignominy of being kicked out in 05 and being in the wilderness for a full year. He did come back strongly in one dayers, and to some extent in tests, but i think it's really too late for him.
BTW, I've been one of the harshest critics of Saurav Ganguly who did a good job of finding and developing a core group of players, but afterwards neglected his batting and got mired in jus clinging onto his place, and finally had the ignominy of being kicked out in 05 and being in the wilderness for a full year. He did come back strongly in one dayers, and to some extent in tests, but i think it's really too late for him.
pup11
International Coach
I think Vaughan' captaincy should never come under the scanner, he did a brilliant job as captain, but once he became the captain, over the period of time he really didn't merit a place in the team on the basis of inconsistencies in his batting, mind you Ganguly has an even worse batting record as captain in comparison to Vaughan, so its pretty safe to say that their captaincy helped them cling on their spots in their respective teams for longer than it would have been possible, had they been there as normal players.
I hear a lot of people praise how good Vaughan's captaincy was, which is fair enough, but i don't hear too many people praise Naseer Hussain for his term as England captain, when he took over the reigns of the English side, they were crap, but he built a good unit and he was the one found and showed trust in Flintoff and groomed him into the all-rounder he is today, Jones, Harmison, Anderson, Hoggard, Strauss they all came into the English side under Husssain' leadership and the fact of the matter is Hussain handed over the reigns of a much healthier English side (as compared to the one he got) to Vaughan.
Vaughan was able to built on that and that's one of the prime reasons why England did so well in the period of 2004 to 2005.
Uppercut
Request Your Custom Title Now!
He stayed in the role too long. But that isn't what you asked, and in 2004-05 his captaincy had a huge positive effect on the side.
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
Fair points about Hussain, he was a very good skipper. Just wanted to be a pedant and point out that Strauss made his debut under Vaughan.
Agree with Uppercut's post, also
pup11
International Coach
Opps...... my bad.
Precambrian
Banned
Actually if you remove Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, Ganguly's and Vaughan's batting records are near identical, Ganguly's 34.01 only marginally better than Vaughan's 33.71.
Fair points otherwise.
Precambrian
Banned
Graham Gooch's batting records as captain is amazing!
Matches ----------> 34
Runs ---------------> 3582
Average -----------> 58.72
And he's scored pretty well against ALL teams during his tenure as captain
Vs Australia --------> 908 runs @ 56.75
Vs India --------------> 799 runs @ 80 (That 333 included)
Vs NZ -----------------> 467 runs @ 46.7
Vs Pakistan --------> 384 @ 48
Vs SL -----------------> 323 @ 81
Vs WI -----------------> 701 @ 54
Amazing stats that! That's one guy who loves thumping at helm! Why he got replaced as captain by Mike Atherton in 93?
NB - This guy played under 11 Test captains during his career. Now is that some record?
Matches ----------> 34
Runs ---------------> 3582
Average -----------> 58.72
And he's scored pretty well against ALL teams during his tenure as captain
Vs Australia --------> 908 runs @ 56.75
Vs India --------------> 799 runs @ 80 (That 333 included)
Vs NZ -----------------> 467 runs @ 46.7
Vs Pakistan --------> 384 @ 48
Vs SL -----------------> 323 @ 81
Vs WI -----------------> 701 @ 54
Amazing stats that! That's one guy who loves thumping at helm! Why he got replaced as captain by Mike Atherton in 93?
NB - This guy played under 11 Test captains during his career. Now is that some record?
Goughy
Hall of Fame Member
He was about 70 years old
Precambrian
Banned
Well, if he was, he did play till he was 72 (till 1995). Reverse of Vaughan I guess.He was about 70 years old
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Gooch was 41, and had an incredible Indian-summer to his career between 1990 and 1994 (almost all of which time he was captain). He'd been a very good opening batsman for the previous (1978-1988) decade, but this form was truly something special.
His captaincy initially worked well for the side as well, and until the end of 1992 he had the job nailed-down for the foreseeable future. But in 1992/93 and 1993 England's fortunes nosedived spectacularly and he decided it'd be best for everyone to let Atherton take-over. Gooch's batting boom lasted just beyond his captaincy, then finally from the Second Test in 1994 onwards he had the little down period that most people have at the end of their careers.
His captaincy initially worked well for the side as well, and until the end of 1992 he had the job nailed-down for the foreseeable future. But in 1992/93 and 1993 England's fortunes nosedived spectacularly and he decided it'd be best for everyone to let Atherton take-over. Gooch's batting boom lasted just beyond his captaincy, then finally from the Second Test in 1994 onwards he had the little down period that most people have at the end of their careers.