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***Official*** South Africa in England

Should Freddy be included in team for the second Test?


  • Total voters
    44

Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
BTW, :laugh: at the BCC's reporting there. People just don't want to admit "Broad has never looked like taking Test wickets" do they?
I'm afraid that we might have to face the reality that Broad has been rested rather than dropped.
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Harsh on Broad, but he simply needs to take more wickets.

Last chance saloon for Collingwood, methinks.
Not really. Broad's not really a Test bowler yet - he's a one day bowler. Collingwood has shown he can cut it at Test level, I don't really know why his place as a batsman is under threat all the time when basically all of the top 6 bar one are as bad as each other and Colly has the best fielding and bowling. Even if his bad run continues he'll be there or thereabouts in the team/squad.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I can't help finding this selection a little baffling. What happened in the selection meeting?:

Vaughan - "Right boys, we havn't taken 20 wickets in a match yet this series. We obviously have sidebottom back so pattinson can go tile his roof again. What do we think?"

Giles - "We obviously lack in the bowling department, I have an idea. Call me crazy but what if we drop a bowler?"

All selectors - "Brilliant...."

Vaughan - "Pub anyone?"

I know the pitch ain't geared for pace bowlers but what is Collingwood actually going to do?
As I said - if England are serious about levelling the series (which you'd hope they would be) then the pitch does need to be geared for seamers. If it is, Broad is useless anyway so you might as well drop him for a batsman, who (in theory) will score more runs, as you don't need Broad's threat-less bowling anyway.

On a green seamer, which you hope for the sake of England's ambitions they're demanding, you need a deep batting-line-up.

A flat pitch ending-up in a draw isn't really much good for either team, TBH. And I really hope we don't get one.
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I'm afraid that we might have to face the reality that Broad has been rested rather than dropped.
I don't doubt plenty of people will want to believe that due to their over-inflated ideas of his Test bowling skills, but I hope the reality is that they've realised he was picked for Test cricket when he shouldn't have been. We'll never know for sure - but we can hope that he doesn't get picked again until something has changed.
 

Stapel

International Regular
Someone tell me why people keep leaving Anderson out of the side. He has 33 @ 27 in 2008, and 25 at under 25 this home summer. Leaving him out would be a joke.
I agree there are no reasons to drop him now. However, Anderson has quite a history of not living up to expectations. Maybe you are right. Possibly Anderson was brought into the test arena too soon, too young. This year, he's indeed doing fine.
 
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Uppercut

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Averages aren't everything. As I said, his figures at Headingley in 2006 flattered him greatly, there were just two out of six what I'd call "genuine" wickets (Taufeeq Umar and Younis Khan in the second-innings - the others were end-of-innings wickets or Inzamam falling on his stumps). Obviously his figures in the just-concluded Test flatter him enormously as he again picked-up end-of-innings wickets, and in his only other Test at the ground he bowled just 7 overs, being gifted another end-of-innings wicket, Bravo when he was swinging with the game gone.

He's only played 1 Test at Edgbaston, in which he took 3-80, 1 of which was a tailender. And at Trent Bridge, well, the wicket in 2006 turned, but still 3 out of his 5 were end-of-innings wickets. In 2007 he got 2 end-of-innings wickets to turn poor figures into decent ones, and in 2008 he bowled just 11 overs without a wicket.

I'd hardly call him a riproaring success at any of those grounds. It's only Old Trafford (25 wickets at 16.72) that he's had success at in this country.
I know averages aren't everything, and his figures do often flatter him. I usually find myself on the other side of this argument with regards to Panesar when his figures lead some fools to say he's in the same league as a bowler as Daniel Vettori.

However, Harmison has a horrible record both against South Africa and at Edgebaston, averaging 59 and 68 with the ball respectively. And as far as i can remember, he's always played horribly in those matches. Was the touted replacement either Hoggard or Jones, I may well be in favour of dropping Panesar. As it is, Monty has to play IMO.
 

Uppercut

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As I said - if England are serious about levelling the series (which you'd hope they would be) then the pitch does need to be geared for seamers. If it is, Broad is useless anyway so you might as well drop him for a batsman, who (in theory) will score more runs, as you don't need Broad's threat-less bowling anyway.

On a green seamer, which you hope for the sake of England's ambitions they're demanding, you need a deep batting-line-up.

A flat pitch ending-up in a draw isn't really much good for either team, TBH. And I really hope we don't get one.
Surely a turning pitch is what would REALLY favour England? A typical South African pitch, even without Steyn, is surely as likely if not more likely to induce a result in SA's favour as it is England. A cracked and broken up pitch brings the spinners into play, which is the only area where England have a clear and obvious advantage over SA IMO.
 

Stapel

International Regular
BTW, :laugh: at the BCC's reporting there. People just don't want to admit "Broad has never looked like taking Test wickets" do they?
I hardly got a chance to watch a thing of the first two tests and got most of my info from BBC and/or cricinfo. I had the impression Broad bowled some good spells but got a bit unlucky not to take more wickets.

Is there at least some truth in this?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I know averages aren't everything, and his figures do often flatter him. I usually find myself on the other side of this argument with regards to Panesar when his figures lead some fools to say he's in the same league as a bowler as Daniel Vettori.

However, Harmison has a horrible record both against South Africa and at Edgebaston, averaging 59 and 68 with the ball respectively. And as far as i can remember, he's always played horribly in those matches. Was the touted replacement either Hoggard or Jones, I may well be in favour of dropping Panesar. As it is, Monty has to play IMO.
I'd never remotely countenance picking Harmison ahead of MSP either. I was merely making the general point. Hoggard now appears to be out of the picture and I've thought that for quite a while. Jones still appears to be deemed to have not proven his fitness satisfactorily.

Should they elect for Jones at The Oval, I'd be happiest to see MSP left-out. Unless Anderson has a shocker at Edgbaston, and even then I'd still be inclined to think he deserves one game's grace.
 

Uppercut

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I hardly got a chance to watch a thing of the first two tests and got most of my info from BBC and/or cricinfo. I had the impression Broad bowled some good spells but got a bit unlucky not to take more wickets.

Is there at least some truth in this?
No. He bowled line and length (no swing, a little bounce but nothing extravagant, no express pace) at about 80mph. When he got it right, he kept it fairly tight, when he got it wrong he went for runs. At no stage did he looked particularly threatening.

The media love him for some reason, probably because he seems to try so hard and want to learn. IMO he's just not currently good enough for the test side.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Surely a turning pitch is what would REALLY favour England? A typical South African pitch, even without Steyn, is surely as likely if not more likely to induce a result in SA's favour as it is England. A cracked and broken up pitch brings the spinners into play, which is the only area where England have a clear and obvious advantage over SA IMO.
I don't think it's really possible to deliberately prepare such a surface at Edgbaston though. The soil type just doesn't allow it.

You can prepare a green seamer, deliberately, in most places. And certainly most places in this country. And absolutely certainly at Edgbaston. But the decision will already have been made, and I can just hope it's the right one.

Come what may, England need a result pitch. If it's a case of seam-vs-seam, England IMO have the edge, just. But it should result in a cracking game, and that's what I'm most anxious to see. A result pitch is also in SA's best interests for mine, because I think the worst thing for them would be a draw in this game, as I can just see them repeating their foibles of The Oval 2003 if the situation is the same (ie a 1-game lead). If it's 1-1 going into The Oval, they're challenged to win again there. And obviously, if they can come-out on top on an Edgbaston seamer, that's the series sewn-up.
 

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
I can't help finding this selection a little baffling. What happened in the selection meeting?:

Vaughan - "Right boys, we havn't taken 20 wickets in a match yet this series. We obviously have sidebottom back so pattinson can go tile his roof again. What do we think?"

Giles - "We obviously lack in the bowling department, I have an idea. Call me crazy but what if we drop a bowler?"

All selectors - "Brilliant...."

Vaughan - "Pub anyone?"

I know the pitch ain't geared for pace bowlers but what is Collingwood actually going to do?
Disagree.

Sidebottom, Anderson, Flintoff & Panesar >>>>> Flintoff, Broad, Pattinson, Anderson & Panesar.

The first attack looks like 3 good bowlers from 4 (Sidebottom 1, Flintoff 1, Anderson and panesar 0.5 each) while the other looks like 2.25 from 5 (Flintoff 1, Broad 0.25, Pattinson 0, Anderson 0.5, Panesar 0.5).
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Disagree.

Sidebottom, Anderson, Flintoff & Panesar >>>>> Flintoff, Broad, Pattinson, Anderson & Panesar.

The first attack looks like 3 good bowlers from 4 (Sidebottom 1, Flintoff 1, Anderson and panesar 0.5 each) while the other looks like 2.25 from 5 (Flintoff 1, Broad 0.25, Pattinson 0, Anderson 0.5, Panesar 0.5).
Kinda the point I was trying to make in my reply to that post.

Quality > quantity. The latter is no substitute for the former. You can pick as many bowlers as you want - if they're all poor, you won't get any more from 5 poor bowlers than you will from 2 poor bowlers.
 

Uppercut

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I don't think it's really possible to deliberately prepare such a surface at Edgbaston though. The soil type just doesn't allow it.

You can prepare a green seamer, deliberately, in most places. And certainly most places in this country. And absolutely certainly at Edgbaston. But the decision will already have been made, and I can just hope it's the right one.

Come what may, England need a result pitch. If it's a case of seam-vs-seam, England IMO have the edge, just. But it should result in a cracking game, and that's what I'm most anxious to see. A result pitch is also in SA's best interests for mine, because I think the worst thing for them would be a draw in this game, as I can just see them repeating their foibles of The Oval 2003 if the situation is the same (ie a 1-game lead). If it's 1-1 going into The Oval, they're challenged to win again there. And obviously, if they can come-out on top on an Edgbaston seamer, that's the series sewn-up.

You may be right about Edgebaston, but i've heard there's been a lot of sunshine and hot weather over the past week or so in England (there has been here). If that's the case, a turning pitch might be possible if the weather holds up.

I'm always in favour of a result pitch. In this case, England, SA, the fans and spectators all want a pitch that can provide a result. I don't know about England having the edge, as while their seam attack is now slightly stronger, i suspect the SA batsmen will be just a little more accustomed to a pitch with a lot of pace, particularly if there isn't a lot of swing. Therefore i'd rate this test about 50-50.

If that's the pitch we get, Dale Steyn will be crying himself to sleep for five straight nights...
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
I can't help finding this selection a little baffling. What happened in the selection meeting?:

Vaughan - "Right boys, we havn't taken 20 wickets in a match yet this series. We obviously have sidebottom back so pattinson can go tile his roof again. What do we think?"

Giles - "We obviously lack in the bowling department, I have an idea. Call me crazy but what if we drop a bowler?"

All selectors - "Brilliant...."

Vaughan - "Pub anyone?"

I know the pitch ain't geared for pace bowlers but what is Collingwood actually going to do?
Ever heard of these things?

 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
You may be right about Edgebaston, but i've heard there's been a lot of sunshine and hot weather over the past week or so in England (there has been here). If that's the case, a turning pitch might be possible if the weather holds up.
It takes more than a week of sunshine (which does indeed seem to have been around throughout the Isles) to prepare a turning pitch though. Sure, it might change it from impossible to vaguely do-able, but that'd be about it. As I say - if the soil type isn't right, there's really not much you can do. Preparing a pitch, especially a turner, takes months if the soil type isn't favourable. Preparing a green seamer is relatively straightforward though, even if you do have three weeks of sunshine.
I'm always in favour of a result pitch. In this case, England, SA, the fans and spectators all want a pitch that can provide a result. I don't know about England having the edge, as while their seam attack is now slightly stronger, i suspect the SA batsmen will be just a little more accustomed to a pitch with a lot of pace, particularly if there isn't a lot of swing. Therefore i'd rate this test about 50-50.

If that's the pitch we get, Dale Steyn will be crying himself to sleep for five straight nights...
SA's batting should cope better with it (though I'd not be surprised to see both sides struggle) but I still think Sidebottom-Flintoff-Anderson(-Collingwood) offers slightly more than Nel-Ntini-Morkel-Kallis. SA's is almost exclusively seam-based; England's can use both seam and swing (which once more I hope we'll get a good enough ball to see some of).

I wouldn't imagine the surface is going to be particularly bouncy mind - a slowish, lowish seamer would be the best we could hope for. Quick, bouncy seamers don't tend to be inherant at Edgbaston, sadly.
 
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SpaceMonkey

International Debutant
Well the side has a much better balance. Although it would be nice to see a good young county player getting a chance instead of Collingwood. I guess the fact he will most likely be called upon to bowl got him in more than his batting form. Especially given the type of pitch will probably suit that style of bowling.
 

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