***Official*** South Africa in England

[Uppercut]

Panesar's been a great help in SA getting the best possible result in the first two Tests.

60 overs without a wicket in the 1st Test on the last couple of days, powerless in the 2nd Test as SA went from 130odd for 4 to 500+. What does he have to be before people question his place?

Jeez, that's a bit selective. You purposely left out his best performance, the 4-74 in the first innings at Lord's in unhelpful conditions. His performance at Headingley wasn't great, and his figures flattered him, but it was NOT a spinner's track. Besides, all other English bowlers took a battering there and ended up with humiliating figures. He actually has more wickets than any other English bowler this series, although many were, admittedly, of the tail. The only innings where Panesar did less than could reasonably be expected of him was the second innings at Lord's, and that's no basis on which to drop him. Especially considering Edgebaston will more than likely turn a lot more than either of the first two grounds did.

 

[Richard]

His performance at Headingley wasn't great, and his figures flattered him, but it was NOT a spinner's track.

The point is, though, that on non-spin-receptive tracks, you don't need a spinner.

Especially considering Edgebaston will more than likely turn a lot more than either of the first two grounds did.

I don't really see anything to suggest that's likely. I'm not commenting on whether it will or won't, I've seen no evidence whatsoever to date suggesting how the pitch is likely to play. It could be anything.

But Edgbaston doesn't exactly have that big a history of large-turning surfaces. There was one in 2004, and that's about it in recent times.

Although I can't remember the last time a Test was played at Edgbaston at this time of year. Never mind the last time there were 7 or 8 days of uninterrupted sunshine before and during the Test.

 

[grecian]

However, Monty does seem to have this ability to get people to support and defend every weakness, no matter how obvious.

He also has the ability to get people to totally disregard any strengths he has, too.

 

[Uppercut]

The point is, though, that on non-spin-receptive tracks, you don't need a spinner.

I don't really see anything to suggest that's likely. I'm not commenting on whether it will or won't, I've seen no evidence whatsoever to date suggesting how the pitch is likely to play. It could be anything.

But Edgbaston doesn't exactly have that big a history of large-turning surfaces. There was one in 2004, and that's about it in recent times.

Although I can't remember the last time a Test was played at Edgbaston at this time of year. Never mind the last time there were 7 or 8 days of uninterrupted sunshine before and during the Test.

Edgebaston isn't a legendary turner, but it's surely more likely to turn than Lord's or Headingley were. Whether Panesar should have played those games, i'm not sure- Harmison, Jones and Flintoff didn't have the cases for selection they do now.

Whether Panesar is worth his place is an interesting debate in the other thread. Personally i'm of the opinion that a balanced attack is usually the way to go, and for England that would mean something like Sidebottom, Flintoff, Jones, Panesar.

 

[Richard]

He also has the ability to get people to totally disregard any strengths he has, too.

Not really.

A great many people just think he has strengths that he doesn't.

 

[Richard]

Edgebaston isn't a legendary turner, but it's surely more likely to turn than Lord's or Headingley were. Whether Panesar should have played those games, i'm not sure- Harmison, Jones and Flintoff didn't have the cases for selection they do now.

I don't think it neccessarily is more likely to turn than Lord's or Headingley TBH. Headingley hardly ever turns, but it did a bit towards the end of the Test there in 2006. Lord's has produced as many and as few turners in recent times as Edgbaston has (both produced one in 2004, in consecutive Tests in fact).

The only Test ground in this country that I'd be actually expecting to produce a turning wicket is Old Trafford. And much as most people find the idea unthinkable, Old Trafford right now would be the only Test I'd automatically pick MSP for.

Whether Panesar is worth his place is an interesting debate in the other thread. Personally i'm of the opinion that a balanced attack is usually the way to go, and for England that would mean something like Sidebottom, Flintoff, Jones, Panesar.

I'm of the opinion, and always have been, that fingerspinners (regardless of batting ability) should play only on turning pitches. Such pitches are and have been for decades very rare in this country (they're still much more common in the subcontinent and parts of West Indies). Balance is only useful if each bowler can play a role - which fingerspinners can't on non-turners.

 

[Uppercut]

Well, Monty averages in the 20s with the ball at Headingley, Edgebaston and Trent Bridge. Only at the Oval has he failed miserably, and at OT he averages 16. So i think it's worth keeping him in the side for these tests until he shows for sure that he's totally incapable of taking wickets here.

 

[Richard]

Averages aren't everything. As I said, his figures at Headingley in 2006 flattered him greatly, there were just two out of six what I'd call "genuine" wickets (Taufeeq Umar and Younis Khan in the second-innings - the others were end-of-innings wickets or Inzamam falling on his stumps). Obviously his figures in the just-concluded Test flatter him enormously as he again picked-up end-of-innings wickets, and in his only other Test at the ground he bowled just 7 overs, being gifted another end-of-innings wicket, Bravo when he was swinging with the game gone.

He's only played 1 Test at Edgbaston, in which he took 3-80, 1 of which was a tailender. And at Trent Bridge, well, the wicket in 2006 turned, but still 3 out of his 5 were end-of-innings wickets. In 2007 he got 2 end-of-innings wickets to turn poor figures into decent ones, and in 2008 he bowled just 11 overs without a wicket.

I'd hardly call him a riproaring success at any of those grounds. It's only Old Trafford (25 wickets at 16.72) that he's had success at in this country.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Jeez, that's a bit selective. You purposely left out his best performance, the 4-74 in the first innings at Lord's in unhelpful conditions. His performance at Headingley wasn't great, and his figures flattered him, but it was NOT a spinner's track. Besides, all other English bowlers took a battering there and ended up with humiliating figures. He actually has more wickets than any other English bowler this series, although many were, admittedly, of the tail. The only innings where Panesar did less than could reasonably be expected of him was the second innings at Lord's, and that's no basis on which to drop him. Especially considering Edgebaston will more than likely turn a lot more than either of the first two grounds did.

Flintoff and Anderson have been unlucky and bowled into the ground which doesn't help their figures. Panesar on the other hand has been extremely lucky and undeserving with his wickets so far - and those wickets have been mostly tailenders anyway.

England need 4 good bowlers, not 2 good bowlers and 3 ordinary ones like the last Test.

 

[GIMH]

The point is, though, that on non-spin-receptive tracks, you don't need a spinner.

I don't really see anything to suggest that's likely. I'm not commenting on whether it will or won't, I've seen no evidence whatsoever to date suggesting how the pitch is likely to play. It could be anything.

But Edgbaston doesn't exactly have that big a history of large-turning surfaces. There was one in 2004, and that's about it in recent times.

Although I can't remember the last time a Test was played at Edgbaston at this time of year. Never mind the last time there were 7 or 8 days of uninterrupted sunshine before and during the Test.

2005 was only a week later than this one tbh

 

[Marius]

England would be mad to drop Panesar in my opinion. I don't think he's been too bad in the series.

And Dale Steyn is out of the next Test

Hopefully Nella is a worthy replacement.

Hopefully SA don't do what they've done the last three series in England, and choke at the end.

What is the verdict on the selection of Harmison? Are England clutching at straws, or is it an inspired decision?

 

[Lord_fez]

Just heard an interesting news point on the radio that the groundsman at brum has told the selectors not to bother picking Harmison as the pitch won't do him an favours.
Interesting after the weekend weather (although storms tonight and rain tomorrow apparently!?)

Not sure if this is just random news hype or what but interesting none the less


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/england/7529325.stm

 

[fredfertang]

Just heard an interesting news point on the radio that the groundsman at brum has told the selectors not to bother picking Harmison as the pitch won't do him an favours.
Interesting after the weekend weather (although storms tonight and rain tomorrow apparently!?)

Not sure if this is just random news hype or what but interesting none the less


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/england/7529325.stm

Not a difficult call given Harmy's test record at Edgbaston - 5 wickets at 68 each!

 

[Richard]

2005 was only a week later than this one tbh

Haha, so it was. That pitch was certainly less typical-Edgbaston than you expect, indeed.

 

[Richard]

Just heard an interesting news point on the radio that the groundsman at brum has told the selectors not to bother picking Harmison as the pitch won't do him an favours.
Interesting after the weekend weather (although storms tonight and rain tomorrow apparently!?)

Not sure if this is just random news hype or what but interesting none the less


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/england/7529325.stm

Find Atherton's comments quoted there quite remarkable TBH.

His selection is as uninspiring as his recent record in international cricket and his attitude.

Surely, it sends a terrible message: that it does not matter if, time and again, you do not so much cherish and nurture your talent as abuse it; and that it does not matter if, time and again, you turn up unprepared, there will always be another chance.

Rouse's comments are no more than confirmation of the expected for mine. Edgbaston has never even looked like The WACA or Sabina Park.

 

[WhatisRight]

I havent gone through what people here think on bringing back haramison but i do believe that his comeback is gona be good. I know 100% that he still has got the capability to get wickets with those amazing deliveries that he bowls. I became a fan of his after watching him in the 2005 ashes. So i am really backing him to perform becuase once he finds his rhythm then i can gurantee you guys that he along with flintoff, anderson will be something to watch out for, for the aussies.

 

[Anna]

2005 was only a week later than this one tbh

And 2009 will be exactly the same dates as Wednesday's: 30th July - 3rd August.

Just heard an interesting news point on the radio that the groundsman at brum has told the selectors not to bother picking Harmison as the pitch won't do him an favours.
Interesting after the weekend weather (although storms tonight and rain tomorrow apparently!?)

Not sure if this is just random news hype or what but interesting none the less


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/england/7529325.stm

Haha at Rousey, it really doesn't surprise me that he came out with someting like that.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

They should have gone for Jones over Harmison!

 

[Magrat Garlick]

Haha at Rousey, it really doesn't surprise me that he came out with someting like that.

Doesn't rate Harmy?

 

[sanga1337]

They should have gone for Jones over Harmison!

Or hoggard