Flem274*
123/5
How and McCullum was such a great contrast. To get rid of How you need to attack him with something tempting because he'll happily block all day. With McCullum you need to tie him down.
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**Official** New Zealand in England
- Thread starter James
- Start date
Flem274*
123/5
Once again, I think the lack of killer instinct is due to lack of experience at test level. If the problem continues when this lot have many tests however, then we should get grumpy. Very grumpy.
Manee
Cricketer Of The Year
Correct me if I am seeing things, but noticed in a small clip package of Anderson shown on Sky Sports, that he is really driving his bowling arm through to the intended target for most of his wickets and this could be a potential cause of his increase in accuracy. This would also rattify Anderson's theory that his problems have been more mental than technical.
Flem274*
123/5
B McCullum
J How
R Taylor
P Fulton
S Styris
J Oram
D Flynn
D Vettori
K Mills
T Southee
M Mason/J Patel
Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
Positives
Jamie How looks a decent opener.
Flynn proved a good selection, and considering he's the youngest player in the side, it was pleasing (and worrying) to see him showing more discipline and application than the rest of the top six combined.
Vettori produced some of his best attacking spells in a while, and continued with some good captaincy.
Jacob Oram's return to form was probably the most pleasing sight of the series, and he remains a useful backup seamer.
Showed the ability to scrap and save a match at Lords.
Negatives
Complete inability to drive home the advantage when we had England on the back foot.
Continued failure of Redmond and Marshall leaves us a long way off from solving our problems at the top.
Repeated failure to prevent a couple of quick wickets from turning into full blown collapses.
Our lower order, so often our saving grace, looked wafer thin throughout the series, in comparison to England's.
Lacking a genuine wicket taker. Seeing Shane Bond averaging under 20 in county cricket makes me feel like I've just drunk warm sick.
Poor running and fielding. In each test we dropped crucial catches, displayed sloppy outfielding and allowed the english batsmen plenty of quick singles. And then there were those two ghastly run outs at old trafford.
Jamie How looks a decent opener.
Flynn proved a good selection, and considering he's the youngest player in the side, it was pleasing (and worrying) to see him showing more discipline and application than the rest of the top six combined.
Vettori produced some of his best attacking spells in a while, and continued with some good captaincy.
Jacob Oram's return to form was probably the most pleasing sight of the series, and he remains a useful backup seamer.
Showed the ability to scrap and save a match at Lords.
Negatives
Complete inability to drive home the advantage when we had England on the back foot.
Continued failure of Redmond and Marshall leaves us a long way off from solving our problems at the top.
Repeated failure to prevent a couple of quick wickets from turning into full blown collapses.
Our lower order, so often our saving grace, looked wafer thin throughout the series, in comparison to England's.
Lacking a genuine wicket taker. Seeing Shane Bond averaging under 20 in county cricket makes me feel like I've just drunk warm sick.
Poor running and fielding. In each test we dropped crucial catches, displayed sloppy outfielding and allowed the english batsmen plenty of quick singles. And then there were those two ghastly run outs at old trafford.
Athlai
Not Terrible
I don't know, Taylor's knock was the difference in the first innings and in the second innings Monty was magic. Vaughan outfoxed us by using a heavy roller on the pitch and leaving Vettori with little till the next afternoon and by then it was Englands. They played extremely well, I was watching the whole way through and I really think that they earned that victory. That second innings if you remember was fine from the top orders perspective, nothing spectacular but no real collapse. Taylor didn't score but was gotten out with a fairly good delivery, McCullum tried to press home our advantage and there you go we're in trouble. Flynn was injured so our middle order was a man down, Oram has his Sidebottom boogeyman. Vettori is just a very good number 8 and then your in the tail which includes the walking wicket Martin. It was by no means an innings to be proud of but with the absence of Flynn I think we can be excused a little humiliation from it.
The difference in that match (other than the second innings business) was Broad's tail end batting, he saved England from the follow on. And I reckon we'd have had them for certain if that was the case, that young man played his heart out and put the likes of Bell and Colly to shame.
Flem274*
123/5
So, do the positives outweigh the negatives? The fielding should be sorted easily, as should the running. Jimmy Franklin should provide some stability to the tail upon his return. The other problems should be the focus.
Finding a bloody opener is a huge plus.
Athlai
Not Terrible
An interesting little note to these lineups guys, McCullum is woeful facing the first ball of the match and therefore the lineup should read.
How
McCullum
etc.
My team would be:
How
McCullum
Fulton
Taylor
Styris
Oram
Flynn? (Oram's so good at 6 that I had to put him there instead of Flynn)
Vettori
Mills
Southee
Mason/O'Brien/Martin/Patel this spot is the real question IMO. Depends on pitch, conditions and form really. My first choice for bowling would probably be Martin, he's down alright in ODI's lately oddly enough, and of course if its even slightly a turner I want Patel. He's also a good breath of experience to the NZ attack.
Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
It's pretty iffy. There are definately plenty of signs that this team can and will improve, but there need to be some major changes, especially in terms of the batsmen's attitude. When your most inexperienced player is the only one batting with any sense, its kind of a sign that not all is well. Another problem is that I'm not sure how well Vettori is coping with having to juggle being the sides best bowler, batsman and captain. He's had an extremely average series with the bat by his recent standards. Hope he comes out of it soon.
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Flem274*
123/5
Harsh on How. He was fairly circumspect.
Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
Actually I thought How was disappointingly cavalier. In all three of his decent scores, he played a lot of loose shots, especially trying to slash it away through point, and that led to his downfall both times after he'd passed 50. He needs to tighten up, or international bowling attacks will start to exploit that very quickly.
NZTailender
I can't believe I ate the whole thing
They will need to actually play to compete for that though. Our next test series is against Australia.
November 2008
Thu 13 - Sun 16 11:00 local, 00:00 GMT New South Wales v New Zealanders Sydney Cricket Ground
Thu 20 - Mon 24 10:00 local, 00:00 GMT 1st Test - Australia v New Zealand Brisbane Cricket Ground, Woolloongabba, Brisbane
Fri 28 - Tue 2 10:30 local, 00:00 GMT 2nd Test - Australia v New Zealand Adelaide Oval
The NZ domestic season started in 2007 on November 12th. So unless they bring it forward to give some of the NZ players time to get cricket under their belt, other than ODI's, they would realistically have to pick Redmond as the incumbent.
What they could do is pick Papps and Bell, and then play all three of them in the tour match against NSW, and whoever bats at 3 in the 1st innings swaps with one of the other openers in the second.
How will be a certainty, and will get to play international cricket between now and then. Redmond, Papps, Bell and Marshall (ugh, it IS a possibility unfortunately) will probably only be able play grade cricket until the test series.
So, unless they keep Redmond as the incumbent, they may ask someone who is in form from the ODI's between now and then to open. Two people immediately spring to mind: Brendon McCullum and Jesse Ryder.
There had been rumours McCullum would open in England, and given that he will probably be getting the most shots at batting in the ODIs (and I should point out now in no way I am advocating the picking of people based on ODI form) therefore will be seen as 'match ready'. AFAIK, Ryder will be back in time for the Champions Trophy at least and will most likely return to the openers role. And guess what? In selectors eyes they will probably see that as a good reason to make him open in the tests.
So come Australia we might see a top order with any of the following possibilites:
Bold=What I hope/would pick
Underline=Possibility
Italic=Please no for ****s sake
1. How
2. Redmond | McCullum/Ryder | Papps/Bell/Marshall
3. Fulton | McCullum | Marshall
4. Taylor
5. Flynn
6. Oram
7. McCullum | Hopkins
Flynn showed some definite promise in England. Fulton also should've been ahead of Marshall, but anyway. I would give Fulton the number 3 spot as Taylor seems to have found his place at 4, I don't think Flynn should be exposed to that spot so early and if McCullum were to bat there and if Hopkins was brought in I think I would scream, then smash a few windows, then eat the shards.
However Fulton's match preparation could also be an issue. Unless he gets a shot in ODIs between now and Australia he will be in the same boat as Papps, Bell and Marshall for trying to get a spot in the side. However, Fulton has an advantage in experience and simply being one of the best batsmen in New Zealand. It would be a big gamble playing him in Australia, especially given our half-weak opening combination.
Alternatively, McCullum could bat and three without Hopkins having to come in, then you could debut Ryder down the order at 6 shuffling Oram down to 7.
Since this is getting into the possibilities over the NZ next test side, I may as well round it off for the bowlers.
I'm pretty sure Franklin will be back by then. He will be a massive boost I think as he can swing the bowl and get it up there at a pretty decent pace. Mills can swing, but can't get that much pace. Martin can get a bit of pace, but not too much that would trouble Australian batsmen on Australian pitches. However, he has been a much improved bowler in recent times. IMHO he was unlucky in England despite bowling well.
Vettori will be picked, obviously, with Oram the all-rounder.
I think Gillespie should be in the squad. He has some genuine pace and fire in the belly, and the Australian pitches would suit his bowling more than anyone else in the team. He would be my first reserve in case any of the seamers get injured. Or, one has a woefully bad match and deserves to be dropped to try Gillespie in the 2nd test (hate 2 test series, deadset).
Patel as the next in line, obviously. Could maybe get a go at Adelaide alongside Vettori if takes a bit of turn like it should, but hasn't exactly been doing for a while.
I think O'Brien would get somewhat eaten alive, but he deserves to be in the squad for his performances in England. If Franklin is fit though, he should come straight into the side replacing Iain.
So, this is what I hope the test squad is for the tour of Australia:
1. How
2. Redmond
3. Fulton
4. Taylor
5. Flynn
6. Oram
7. McCullum+
8. Vettori*
9. Franklin
10. Mills
11. Martin
12. Patel
13. Gillespie
14. Ryder
15. O'Brien
Okay side IMHO.
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NZTailender
I can't believe I ate the whole thing
My marks out of ten:
IE O'Brien - 8
LRPL Taylor - 8
JDP Oram - 7
DL Vettori - 7
JM How - 7
KD Mills - 6
BB McCullum - 6
CS Martin - 5
DR Flynn - 5
GJ Hopkins - 4
JAH Marshall - 2
AJ Redmond - 2
TG Southee - 1
Athlai
Not Terrible
The Tour of England
Jamie How
With scores of 7, 68, 64, 29, 40 and 19 How was New Zealand's most reliable batsman. This should come as some relief to New Zealand supporters that a New Zealand opener was reliable. He played well despite never being spectacular, despite being only in his 12th Test match (and his 6th being any good) he showed a streak of experience which was lacking in a very inexperienced Kiwi side.
English tour: 227 @ 37.83
Both tours: 428 @ 35.66
7 out of 10
Aaron Redmond
The infamous New Zealand opening problem. We just can never find one who sticks and this time the unlikely man was Redmond. To be fair to him, he got out to some excellent deliveries, yet lacked the stickability to really make an impression in the team. Scores of 0, 17, 28, 6, 1 and 2 leave a lot to be desired. Should be given another chance after his first foray into international cricket.
English tour: 54 @ 9
Both tours: NA
3 out of 10
James Marshall
Bracewell's lovechild is by no means the worst batsman to ever grace our team, yet much like his brother isn't quite up to standard at Test level. A fine fielder though.
English tour: 52 @ 13
Both tours: NA
3 out of 10
Ross Taylor
One magnificent innings (154*) showed us his potential and the rest of his innings he lay dormant, contributing yet to no real extent. Ross Taylor was the apex of our batting order yet at the ripe old age of 24 and in his 8th Test match the burden on this man is heavy. A good tour for him and his position at first slip makes the transition from Flemings class seamless.
English tour: 243 @ 48.60
Both tours: 553 @ 50.27
7.5 out of 10
Brendon McCullum
A trial up the order has been remotely successful for McCullum, NZ's most fiery batsman scored two good knocks and ended up 5th highest run scorer in the series. While the Lords honours board alluded him once more, he very much deserved a hundred that day. Another solid if not remarkable from arguably the greatest keeper in international cricket (certainly not the best slipper).
English tour: 212 @ 35.33
Both tours: 424 (scored 212 in home series as well) @ 35.33
6 out of 10
Daniel Flynn
Showed an unprecedented grit and determination to draw the first match, and after suffering a horrific injury in the second match, he came back in the third to once again show his determination. Flynn showed a lot of potential and talent in this series and is definitely one to keep an eye on in the future. Anderson vs. Flynn could become an interesting battle considering Anderson knocked his teeth out.
English tour: 91 @ 30.33
Both tours: NA
5 out of 10
Jacob Oram
Finally Oram has come back into form, while showing traces of it in his first innings at Lord's his second innings (101) finally announced he was back in business. Sidebottom has got him 3 times in the series and certainly knows where to bowl against the big man, yet in this battle, Oram was the winner, finishing with 3rd highest tour run tally. His bowling remained handy, and was once again unrewarded with wickets that he really deserved throughout the series.
English tour: 231 @ 46.20
3 W @ 40.33
Both tours: 279 @ 31
11 W @ 21.81
7 out of 10
Daniel Vettori
An absolute hideous run out at Old Trafford really sums up Vettori's batting in this series, a bad run of form has hit our captain that fortunately enough has coincided with good form in his bowling. He bowled as well as you could ask for throughout the series, and his captaincy barring a few hiccups (bowled himself too long at times, yet mostly out of pure frustration at England's lower order) was sound. If his batting had been up to his usual standard (of late) we may have challenged England more throughout the series, yet if his bowling had been to the same standard we would still be falling up short. A decent enough series for the young skipper.
English tour: 61 @ 12.20
12 W @ 26.91
Both tours: 291 @ 29.10
19 W @ 37.15
6.5 out of 10
Kyle Mills
Despite struggling with the ball in the first two Tests he came back well in the third, and provided the most sting from a rather disappointing series from our tail order. Our second most experienced seamer has just 14 Tests to his name and will hopefully improve in Tests to come, without a swinging ball he looks all too harmless.
English tour: 78 @ 15.60
6 W @ 31.83
Both tours: 128 @ 16.00
16 W @ 25.81
5.5 out of 10
Tim Southee
The New Zealand whizz kid played in only one match and did little of note. 1 innings with 1 run and no wickets, yet in a weather affected Test match his 16 overs were little to judge any real form. Unlucky not to get a spot in the final match.
English tour: 1 @ 1
0 W
Both tours: 83 @ 41.50
5 W @ 39.60
2 out of 10
Chris Martin
Luckless, bowled well throughout the series with little reward. Yet for NZ to do well, he really needed to get the wickets, and despite his bad luck he still had a distinctly average series.
English tour: 0 @ 0
4 W @ 58.75
Both tours: 10 @ 2
15 W @ 41.26
5 out of 10
Iain O'Brien
This man bowled one of the greatest spells I've ever seen, as he rolled England's top order at Old Trafford despite bowling into a 30mph gale. The selection that very few were excited about initially became the pick of New Zealand's seam bowlers. While when the conditions didn't suit him he was as harmless as your next Kiwi, his line and length were often impeccable. This series really cemented his place in the Kiwi setup, while not yet a starter, definitely the first name on the bench.
English tour: 15 @ 3.75
8 W @ 23.12
Both tours: NA
7.5 out of 10
Gareth Hopkins
He was solid with the gloves and got two starts in difficult conditions. Hopkins did alright on debut, though if McCullum was fit he would not fall into contention. Bad luck for New Zealand's next best keeper. 2
English tour: 27 @ 13.50
Both tours: NA
3 out of 10
Jamie How
With scores of 7, 68, 64, 29, 40 and 19 How was New Zealand's most reliable batsman. This should come as some relief to New Zealand supporters that a New Zealand opener was reliable. He played well despite never being spectacular, despite being only in his 12th Test match (and his 6th being any good) he showed a streak of experience which was lacking in a very inexperienced Kiwi side.
English tour: 227 @ 37.83
Both tours: 428 @ 35.66
7 out of 10
Aaron Redmond
The infamous New Zealand opening problem. We just can never find one who sticks and this time the unlikely man was Redmond. To be fair to him, he got out to some excellent deliveries, yet lacked the stickability to really make an impression in the team. Scores of 0, 17, 28, 6, 1 and 2 leave a lot to be desired. Should be given another chance after his first foray into international cricket.
English tour: 54 @ 9
Both tours: NA
3 out of 10
James Marshall
Bracewell's lovechild is by no means the worst batsman to ever grace our team, yet much like his brother isn't quite up to standard at Test level. A fine fielder though.
English tour: 52 @ 13
Both tours: NA
3 out of 10
Ross Taylor
One magnificent innings (154*) showed us his potential and the rest of his innings he lay dormant, contributing yet to no real extent. Ross Taylor was the apex of our batting order yet at the ripe old age of 24 and in his 8th Test match the burden on this man is heavy. A good tour for him and his position at first slip makes the transition from Flemings class seamless.
English tour: 243 @ 48.60
Both tours: 553 @ 50.27
7.5 out of 10
Brendon McCullum
A trial up the order has been remotely successful for McCullum, NZ's most fiery batsman scored two good knocks and ended up 5th highest run scorer in the series. While the Lords honours board alluded him once more, he very much deserved a hundred that day. Another solid if not remarkable from arguably the greatest keeper in international cricket (certainly not the best slipper).
English tour: 212 @ 35.33
Both tours: 424 (scored 212 in home series as well) @ 35.33
6 out of 10
Daniel Flynn
Showed an unprecedented grit and determination to draw the first match, and after suffering a horrific injury in the second match, he came back in the third to once again show his determination. Flynn showed a lot of potential and talent in this series and is definitely one to keep an eye on in the future. Anderson vs. Flynn could become an interesting battle considering Anderson knocked his teeth out.
English tour: 91 @ 30.33
Both tours: NA
5 out of 10
Jacob Oram
Finally Oram has come back into form, while showing traces of it in his first innings at Lord's his second innings (101) finally announced he was back in business. Sidebottom has got him 3 times in the series and certainly knows where to bowl against the big man, yet in this battle, Oram was the winner, finishing with 3rd highest tour run tally. His bowling remained handy, and was once again unrewarded with wickets that he really deserved throughout the series.
English tour: 231 @ 46.20
3 W @ 40.33
Both tours: 279 @ 31
11 W @ 21.81
7 out of 10
Daniel Vettori
An absolute hideous run out at Old Trafford really sums up Vettori's batting in this series, a bad run of form has hit our captain that fortunately enough has coincided with good form in his bowling. He bowled as well as you could ask for throughout the series, and his captaincy barring a few hiccups (bowled himself too long at times, yet mostly out of pure frustration at England's lower order) was sound. If his batting had been up to his usual standard (of late) we may have challenged England more throughout the series, yet if his bowling had been to the same standard we would still be falling up short. A decent enough series for the young skipper.
English tour: 61 @ 12.20
12 W @ 26.91
Both tours: 291 @ 29.10
19 W @ 37.15
6.5 out of 10
Kyle Mills
Despite struggling with the ball in the first two Tests he came back well in the third, and provided the most sting from a rather disappointing series from our tail order. Our second most experienced seamer has just 14 Tests to his name and will hopefully improve in Tests to come, without a swinging ball he looks all too harmless.
English tour: 78 @ 15.60
6 W @ 31.83
Both tours: 128 @ 16.00
16 W @ 25.81
5.5 out of 10
Tim Southee
The New Zealand whizz kid played in only one match and did little of note. 1 innings with 1 run and no wickets, yet in a weather affected Test match his 16 overs were little to judge any real form. Unlucky not to get a spot in the final match.
English tour: 1 @ 1
0 W
Both tours: 83 @ 41.50
5 W @ 39.60
2 out of 10
Chris Martin
Luckless, bowled well throughout the series with little reward. Yet for NZ to do well, he really needed to get the wickets, and despite his bad luck he still had a distinctly average series.
English tour: 0 @ 0
4 W @ 58.75
Both tours: 10 @ 2
15 W @ 41.26
5 out of 10
Iain O'Brien
This man bowled one of the greatest spells I've ever seen, as he rolled England's top order at Old Trafford despite bowling into a 30mph gale. The selection that very few were excited about initially became the pick of New Zealand's seam bowlers. While when the conditions didn't suit him he was as harmless as your next Kiwi, his line and length were often impeccable. This series really cemented his place in the Kiwi setup, while not yet a starter, definitely the first name on the bench.
English tour: 15 @ 3.75
8 W @ 23.12
Both tours: NA
7.5 out of 10
Gareth Hopkins
He was solid with the gloves and got two starts in difficult conditions. Hopkins did alright on debut, though if McCullum was fit he would not fall into contention. Bad luck for New Zealand's next best keeper. 2
English tour: 27 @ 13.50
Both tours: NA
3 out of 10
** Marks for this series only. **
S.P. Fleming
U19 Cricketer
I still think we need to keep sticking at this operner thing until we find a decent partner for How. I wouldnt mind seeing Ryder slot in the middle order though but mabe that would mean the risk of exposing Taylor at 3 and either Flynn or McCullum at 4. I would also welcome the return of Jimmy Franklin and we must keep sticking with Southee as he will only get better. This is my XI for the GABBA.
How
Redmond/ new genius find
Taylor
Flynn
McCullum
Ryder
Oram
Vettori
Franklin
Southee
Martin
How
Redmond/ new genius find
Taylor
Flynn
McCullum
Ryder
Oram
Vettori
Franklin
Southee
Martin
Goughy
Hall of Fame Member
NZ are interesting. Given the depth in both batting and bowling and the lack of any standout players, there are real opporunities to take a chance on a couple of risky players that may add another dimension even if they are sometimes deadwood.
As there is overall team depth, it is better to try something and have someone fail that has a chance to do something spectacular rather than another ordinary guy fail.
I dont know which players they would be. However, I dont think the inclusion of a guy like Redmond is going to lead to more Test wins.
Given the depth in NZ batting and bowling they can afford a mecurial talent to have an off day as there is cover. Even a poor mans Harrnison or MacGill would fit nicely with the more stable and predictable elements.
EDIT- Though thinking about it, maybe guys like Taylor, Martin, McCullum and Ryder all fall into this category already
As there is overall team depth, it is better to try something and have someone fail that has a chance to do something spectacular rather than another ordinary guy fail.
I dont know which players they would be. However, I dont think the inclusion of a guy like Redmond is going to lead to more Test wins.
Given the depth in NZ batting and bowling they can afford a mecurial talent to have an off day as there is cover. Even a poor mans Harrnison or MacGill would fit nicely with the more stable and predictable elements.
EDIT- Though thinking about it, maybe guys like Taylor, Martin, McCullum and Ryder all fall into this category already
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