**Official** New Zealand in England

[Flem274*]

That's the danger a batsman with no footwork to start with starts to become a liability. Oram is not hitting the ball well atm. It's scary because he's got no base to go back to when he's struggling with the bat. He's a version of Vettori with big hits.

Jesse Ryder falls in the same category. The Fleming legacy. Vettori must have modeled his batting alongside Fleming as well I'm sure. Anyone else that has no pronounced footwork? Fulton is another I can think of. You never see these batsmen step to the front to face deliveries that demand front foot techniques. They just seem to stand there frozen waiting for the ball to eventually hit their pads for LBWs while they play across the line.

Generally pitches in domestic cricket are green and slow. This changed recently but thats the classic kiwi pitch. As a result batsmen didn't have to move their feet as much and could play around their front pad comfortably. Also the short balls were not very quick so when it came to internationals a few (Papps and Cumming most recently) get a bit of a shock.

I don't see how typical NZ batsman failures can be blamed on Fleming and Vettori however.

Because of the slowness, bowlers like Bradley Scott and Kyle Mills flourish. Medium fasts then can swing the ball and are accurate, therefore causing hell on our pitches.

Kyle Mills is one of the few seamers just above medium that has the class to transfer his domestic career to the world stage and it took a few years for him to find his feet.

*Waits for the real technical know-alls to tear argument apart*

 

[Flem274*]

He's not competing for a specialist number 6 spot though. He's there as an all-rounder, and will continue to be there as such with NZ's selection policies.

I can't remember the last time NZ played 4 specialist bowlers, 6 specialist batsmen and a wicketkeeper.

Yes I know. If he gives up bowling, which he will if he keeps getting injured IIRC, could he hold his place?

 

[NZTailender]

I rate him as a better batsman than the likes of Flynn and Marshall - so if they can get a spot, then Oram should.

 

[Prince EWS]

Yes I know. If he gives up bowling, which he will if he keeps getting injured IIRC, could he hold his place?

Well, I'd hope not, as I don't think he's good enough a batsman to be a specialist in Test cricket. In reality though he probably should - if Marshall and Flynn can...

I rate him as a better batsman than the likes of Flynn and Marshall - so if they can get a spot, then Oram should.

Indeed.

 

[Leslie1]

The one big thing going for Vettori and Oram is their big match temperament. They don't panic like a Sinclair or Bell, and while they don't have the best techniques, they become our senior statesmen because they play "smart football" with whatever talent they do have.

Oram has never been the great batsman or even as a big talent to fill the shoes of Cairns. But he's smart, both with his bowling and his bat. He knows his limitations and plays within them. This will be my compliment to Vettori. He is smart, and smart players > talented no brainers anyday. Smart players tend to have big confidence in their own abilities. Paul Collingwood - smart player, not much to him, but he plays the game well within his limitations.

 

[Flem274*]

Oram is a better batsman than Cairns IMO. Though in the bowling stakes Cairns>>>>>>>Oram.

 

[sportychic33]

Please do not tell me we are going to get into that good old Cairns v Oram debate again.
I'm sure if you did a Thread Search it has been done to DEATH!

Oram and Cairns are completely different allrounders. Oram comes from a Batting Background and was moulded into an all-rounder, whereas Cairns pretty much was a genuine all-rounder from the start.

 

[Richard]

^Agree with Emma.

Cairns vs Oram is almost as tiring as Imran vs Kapil.

Or several things besides.

 

[Athlai]

What if first chance average was applied?

 

[Richard]

AFAIK, neither have had particularly remarkable numbers of let-offs in their innings with the bat.

 

[Flem274*]

Please do not tell me we are going to get into that good old Cairns v Oram debate again.
I'm sure if you did a Thread Search it has been done to DEATH!

Oram and Cairns are completely different allrounders. Oram comes from a Batting Background and was moulded into an all-rounder, whereas Cairns pretty much was a genuine all-rounder from the start.

^Agree with Emma.

Cairns vs Oram is almost as tiring as Imran vs Kapil.

Or several things besides.

Wasn't thinking of Oram vs Cairns TBH. Interesting to see Oram started off as a batsman only.

I was only saying to Leslie that in terms of batting ability Oram>Cairns.

 

[Athlai]

Considering they both enjoy going over the top thats somewhat of a surprise.

 

[sportychic33]

Wasn't thinking of Oram vs Cairns TBH. Interesting to see Oram started off as a batsman only.

I was only saying to Leslie that in terms of batting ability Oram>Cairns.

Do you want me to provide you with a full year by year account of the metamorphises (sp?) of Oram's career??
Even though I am an Oram fan more than Cairns I find it hard to really evaluate and compare the two.

 

[Flem274*]

Considering they both enjoy going over the top thats somewhat of a surprise.

And both played in the evil 2000s.

 

[Flem274*]

Do you want me to provide you with a full year by year account of the metamorphises (sp?) of Oram's career??
Even though I am an Oram fan more than Cairns I find it hard to really evaluate and compare the two.

Not really. Can't I just say Oram is more of a batsman than Cairns and not get told off for supposedly starting a debate over it which ironically, has happened?

 

[sportychic33]

Considering they both enjoy going over the top thats somewhat of a surprise.

The shots that Oram plays on occasion really does make you wonder if he is a batsman to be honest, however if he played more first class cricket / test matches I am sure that it would be evident.
His game is tending towards the big slog kind of shots and this could possibly be why he is struggling with his foot work.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Well, mostly old hacks.

Richard Montgomerie (Sussex, 36)
Darren Bicknell (Surrey & Nottinghamshire, 40)
Nathan Astle (Canterbury & New Zealand, 36)
HD Ackerman (Western Province & Leicestershire, 35)
Rob Nicol (Auckland, 24)
*Chris Cairns (Canterbury & New Zealand, 37)
+Paul Nixon (Kent, Leicestershire & England, 37)
John Stephenson (Essex & Hampshire, 43)
Sean Ervine (Hampshire, Western Australia & Zimbabwe, 25)
Steve Elworthy (Transvaal, 43)
Min Patel (Kent, 37)

The teams are the ones they played for before, obv. Only Ervine and Nicol are on the books of a first-class team now.

HD & The Pres are still at the Foxes too, aren't they?

 

[Richard]

Ind33dy. Still pretty much the star players of the team, what's more.

 

[Leslie1]

Wasn't thinking of Oram vs Cairns TBH. Interesting to see Oram started off as a batsman only.

I was only saying to Leslie that in terms of batting ability Oram>Cairns.

I don't know. Oram's footwork is shocking for a specialist batsman. Then again, so is Jesse Ryder's non-existent footwork but that's because he's a bit on the heavy side. Both are genuine batsmen but give them a good straight medium paced delivery right from the start and they will inevitably get out LBW. Cairns is also quite prone, but I guess that's how these types of batsmen are.

Interestingly enough if Oram has a shockingly bad test series batting wise, we could see Jesse Ryder bat in his position (number 6) instead in the ODIs.

Oram doesn't cut it as a specialist bat in his current form. If his bowling weren't as economical with the odd wicket (best economy of all bowlers in the latest English tests series) I think we would all be criticizing what value he has in the team.

Come to think of it, a lot of our senior players are under some acid test. If Fleming weren't in the side in the home leg for us performing his customary 50s, I think we would all ask the question of Oram, Vettori and McCullum's form with the bat. Our traditionally 'strong' lower order bat is a bit of a myth going into the English series if those three have glaring batting flaws, let alone the big hits. Give me a West Indies lower order batting any day over these three in their current form.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

HD & The Pres are still at the Foxes too, aren't they?

Well corrected. Keeping abreast of retirements at Kolpak Utd is tricky.