Flem274*
123/5
Not a chance. Ross Taylor and Jamie How are the top order heroes with Daniel Vettori scoring double hundreds down at 8.
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**Official** New Zealand in England
- Thread starter James
- Start date
Flem274*
123/5
.Lineup for the 40 over match on Sunday? Any notable names from the English side playing?
McCullum:
"It's going to be hard to leave this (IPL)... This is where it is all happening, but having said that I understand that there is a tour to England about to begin which is really important.
But the couple of warm-up games before the test are going to seem incredibly low key when compared to what is going on here."
You want to play against England? Yes? Play the tour matches then
Braces:
"We've got to work above the line, and the line to be successful as an international batsman is 40-plus"..."We've got to start moving in that direction. We've got to start living above the line."
You don't say John? Correct but, if you believe this is the case then why is there a Marshall in your team? He could average 25, 30 at a stretch but 40? Not a chance and if he does then we have fantastic depth as even our rubbish can come in and average 40
Howie:
"There's no doubt some of us are envious of what's going on over there (IPL)..." (paraphrase)
Get that SR up in ODIs then. Bar that, you're already a bloody legend to me.
Distractions in the buildup? Hell yes. In other news, Gillespie has been discarded for Mason as the 4th seamer, so he will return after May 1st.
Haha, Gillespie misses out and O'Brien stays in. Oh the shame.
Athlai
Not Terrible
Phlegm did you just suggest How should up his SR? Bloody ridiculous mate. He's great the way he is, reckon he could bat slower and I'd still be very happy, with guys like Ryder and McCullum we don't need another top order goer. There's always going to be a place for the less destructive guys, even in T20.
Flem274*
123/5
No. Unless he wants his 20/20 deal. I like him as he is but if he wants a 20/20 signing in India he has no choice.
Personally think we need more "1 run off 1 hour then hit boundaries when its flat" performances. Pisses bowlers off so much.
I did mean the early tour matches.Not a chance. Ross Taylor and Jamie How are the top order heroes with Daniel Vettori scoring double hundreds down at 8.
while Ross sits around doing nothing in 20 20 aside from the odd 20 run innings facing 10 deliveries. Not even I dare to think Marshall will be in the starting 11 in the 1st test without Fulton at least failing for 2 tests in a row before Braces panic and select Marshall at number 3 for the last test.
If Vettori gets a double hundred in a test I'll remove the signature, which some Kiwis object to. For now, I stick to my narrow minded view that he's a ticking timebomb, he will probably bear the grunt of criticism during this tour for being a liability with the bat (form slump and English figuring how to get him out), the ball and his captaincy.
Flem274*
123/5
That sig is awful. Had to be said.I did mean the early tour matches.
Not even I dare to think Marshall will be in the starting 11 in the 1st test without Fulton at least failing for 2 tests in a row before Braces panic and select Marshall at number 3 for the last test.
If Vettori gets a double hundred in a test I'll remove the signature, which some Kiwis object to. For now, I stick to my narrow minded view that he's a ticking timebomb, he will probably bear the grunt of criticism during this tour for being a liability with the bat (form slump and English figuring how to get him out), the ball and his captaincy.
And if Vettori gets sacked then who? How needs to do his batting apprenticeship, Oram can't captain from hospital, Marshall sucks and Fulton=same as How.
Flem274*
123/5
Hs game suffers when he is skipper. He's more of an inspirer than a tactical skipper. He'll be a good advisor but he's not ready yet. We also need to see if he's been a one season wonder or not.McCullum.
McCullum's game has always been inconsistent. At least being an adequate wicket keeper, he can captain the side. I see him taking on a Mark Boucher role (without the average) in his later years.
I'd rather have Franklin for his bowling + batting than Vettori's bowling + batting.
I'd hate to see Southee/Martin/Mills dropped because Franklin is making a comeback and we can't drop our spinner because he's the skipper in seamer-friendly conditions. Vettori doesn't bowl as well as a test spinner should to warrant consistent selection. His captaincy is nowhere near the quality Fleming provides at the moment.
Vettori is too much of a myth at test level to date unfortunately. He can't be relied on to bat to save a test, or to spin sides out when we need spin, or captain to save a test when we are in deep poos (batting collapses). Unreliable is a word I would associate Vettori with. With Flem gone this series, he will come under intense scrunity, as prior he is primarily seen as a bits and pieces test cricketer. Jack of all trades, master of none.
(I am once again setting myself up for a barrage of attacks during this tour, where he is crucial because we have such a young side)
I'd rather have Franklin for his bowling + batting than Vettori's bowling + batting.
I'd hate to see Southee/Martin/Mills dropped because Franklin is making a comeback and we can't drop our spinner because he's the skipper in seamer-friendly conditions. Vettori doesn't bowl as well as a test spinner should to warrant consistent selection. His captaincy is nowhere near the quality Fleming provides at the moment.
Vettori is too much of a myth at test level to date unfortunately. He can't be relied on to bat to save a test, or to spin sides out when we need spin, or captain to save a test when we are in deep poos (batting collapses). Unreliable is a word I would associate Vettori with. With Flem gone this series, he will come under intense scrunity, as prior he is primarily seen as a bits and pieces test cricketer. Jack of all trades, master of none.
(I am once again setting myself up for a barrage of attacks during this tour, where he is crucial because we have such a young side)
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Agreed.
In saying that though, I'd rather Vettori for his batting, even ignoring his bowling altogether, than your favourite gruesome twosome of Flynn and Marshall.
I also think he's a more valuable allrounder than Jacob Oram.
Flem274*
123/5
TBH Vettori is far more valuable than Martin.
Vettori doesn't bat to save tests-he bats to keep us in them. To bat to save a test you need support.
Vettori, as a fingerspinner, won't be an extreme force on non-turners. His bowling is fine. Reliable is a word I'd associate with Vettori. Also, he cannot be expected to be as great as Fleming who is an all time great skipper.
Flem274*
123/5
Oram's allrounderness is in danger I feel. He doesn't hold a place as a batsman alone so he's going to have to bowl. If he quit bowling McCullum would get bumped to six and Vettori, Franklin, Mills, Southee would all go up one. Or Ryder could bat at 6 with an extra batsman included.
In saying that, Oram could (arguably) come in third in the alltime NZ allrounder stakes behind Reid and Cairns.
Flem274*
123/5
However good Flynn is, the shrub negates it plus some.
NZTailender
I can't believe I ate the whole thing
Vettori shouldn't be relied on to save a test match with the bat, though. His batting has improved greatly to the point of it being a bonus. But there is no way he should be expected to carry the weight of an innings when you have 7 people above him selected for that job.
As far as his bowling goes, he works as a part of a team and is a vital contributer as such. It goes beyond the deliveries he actually sends down; a lot of teams rate him and say he's difficult to face. This can create pressure if the batsmen play him accordingley.
Also, he's now our most experienced Black Cap in the test side. Given we're also without Bond, Franklin, Vincent and Bell & Sinclair have been dropped, our then most senior player would be Chris Martin. His experience at test level, having played all test level nations (IIRC) and the fact he has captaining experience, is also something in his favour.
But no, let's drop him, and bring in a spinner who is still unproven at test level with a poor domestic record, give captaincy to a man who bears the weight of wicketkeeping (and if he gives that up, we'll sacrafice a batsmen to bring in the powerhouse of Hopkins) and has shown no real tactical nous all because he isn't as good as Warne with the ball or Kallis with the bat of Fleming in captaincy.
As far as his bowling goes, he works as a part of a team and is a vital contributer as such. It goes beyond the deliveries he actually sends down; a lot of teams rate him and say he's difficult to face. This can create pressure if the batsmen play him accordingley.
Also, he's now our most experienced Black Cap in the test side. Given we're also without Bond, Franklin, Vincent and Bell & Sinclair have been dropped, our then most senior player would be Chris Martin. His experience at test level, having played all test level nations (IIRC) and the fact he has captaining experience, is also something in his favour.
But no, let's drop him, and bring in a spinner who is still unproven at test level with a poor domestic record, give captaincy to a man who bears the weight of wicketkeeping (and if he gives that up, we'll sacrafice a batsmen to bring in the powerhouse of Hopkins) and has shown no real tactical nous all because he isn't as good as Warne with the ball or Kallis with the bat of Fleming in captaincy.
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NZTailender
I can't believe I ate the whole thing
Apart from the England series, he's been one of the better batsmen in tests for NZ for sometime, just behind the likes of Fleming, Styris (at times) and Astle.
And yeah, they're all gone now.
That's the danger a batsman with no footwork to start with starts to become a liability. Oram is not hitting the ball well atm. It's scary because he's got no base to go back to when he's struggling with the bat. He's a version of Vettori with big hits.
Jesse Ryder falls in the same category. The Fleming legacy. Vettori must have modeled his batting alongside Fleming as well I'm sure. Anyone else that has no pronounced footwork? Fulton is another I can think of. You never see these batsmen step to the front to face deliveries that demand front foot techniques. They just seem to stand there frozen waiting for the ball to eventually hit their pads for LBWs while they play across the line.
Jesse Ryder falls in the same category. The Fleming legacy. Vettori must have modeled his batting alongside Fleming as well I'm sure. Anyone else that has no pronounced footwork? Fulton is another I can think of. You never see these batsmen step to the front to face deliveries that demand front foot techniques. They just seem to stand there frozen waiting for the ball to eventually hit their pads for LBWs while they play across the line.
Flem274*
123/5
Yeah but as a specialist number 6 bat he might struggle for a place. Especially with all the other middle order blokes pushing for a place.
If he improved a bit technically he could move up the order.
NZTailender
I can't believe I ate the whole thing
He's not competing for a specialist number 6 spot though. He's there as an all-rounder, and will continue to be there as such with NZ's selection policies.
I can't remember the last time NZ played 4 specialist bowlers, 6 specialist batsmen and a wicketkeeper.
I can't remember the last time NZ played 4 specialist bowlers, 6 specialist batsmen and a wicketkeeper.