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***Official*** South Africa in India

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
He kept intermittantly in ODIs in 2007 and was very sloppy. He kept in a tour match in England and was similarly very poor.
hmm.. if u r talking about those ODIs in Ireland, I thought he kept brilliantly then. Don't really remember anything shoddy at all. There were even calls for Dhoni to be replaced in the tests against England because he wasn't doing well and DK was doing so much better.......
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Agree with Pathan being in and batting at 7, along with being the 3rd seamer

But why replace Dhoni with Karthik? Karthik is NOT a regular opener but you want him to open just coz the big 4 can play from 3 to 6 .... By the same logic as opening with Karthik, why not open with Dhoni? .... Now if opening with Dhoni doesn't make sense to you then why sacrifice Karthik at the top of the order? ok keep Karthik as the wkt but why not open with someone like Ganguly, who has done it in the ODIs ..... Why does everything from the balance of the side to playing non-regular openers playing have to be done so that the big 4 play from 3 to 6? It's more as if the larger issue is not the balance but playing the big 4 in their regular position and then fitting pieces after that

Ppl want to play a specialist opener even though he is not that gr8, why? coz big 4 can play from 3 to 6

Ppl want to replace a good wk and batsman like Dhoni and open with Karthik, why? coz the Big 4 can play from 3 to 6 and a bowling all-rounder can be FIT in to play at 7

Ppl want to open with someone like Pathan, if he is playing in the 11, why? coz the big 4 can play from 3 to 6, even though Pathan can be more useful as a lower order bat

See everything is being sacrificed because ppl want to do things that are best for the big 4, even though it means not playing a bowling all-rounder, opening with a not so gr8 opener like Jaffar, or suggesting things like droping Dhoni [who could open too] and opening with Karthik .... So is the whole excercise of Indian Test cricket to see that FIRST the big 4 play at their respective positions and then everything else happens

Why not start out with someone like Ganguly and say you have been doing well as an ODI opener, we need to play Pathan coz the conditions appear to be tough for the bowlers and easy for batting, so why don't you open the innings in this series? It will also give a left-right opening combination

so why don't you go like this

- Sehwag
- Ganguly
- Dravid
- Tendulkar
- Laxman
- Dhoni [or you can play Karthik, if you wish]
- Pathan
- Others
First of all, check Dhoni's stats in his last few tests and Karthik's......



Secondly, Karthik has had relative success as an opener in difficult conditions AWAY from home. Dhoni is yet to taste any kind of real success even in the middle order AWAY from the subcontinent and that innings in Lords' he was living extremely dangerously.....


And thirdly, I agree that ideally, one of the fab four should open but they don't want to and we can't drop them. They are too much better than their replacements. So we have to live with this and try and work around that problem.... :(
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Hey Social, if you're game, have a bet on a SA win.

They're paying 7.50.

India 6.50 for the win, and a draw 1.25. You seem so confident, may as well get some reward for your brilliant prediction right? ;)
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Dhoni has turned into a very good wicketkeeper. It would be ridiculous to drop him.
Indeed... I am not saying "drop" him per se... But we are talking about horses for courses here... Ideally, I would want one of the middle order guys to juz take up the mantle and say "Alright, I have a good enough technique and I have enough experience. I will open on these flat tracks"... Juz get the feeling that it is the mental side that is their problem... All 4 of them, tbh. And contrary to what you guys might feel (having read my posts here on this issue), I would actually want Dhoni to continue for at least this series and see if his batting improves. His keeping is definitely good enough and no doubt he has improved enormously.


Maybe if he flops for the whole series again, then we can think of replacements... But what I am talking about here is practically what COULD be the best for India. Sometimes you may need to replace someone who doesn't actually need to be replaced to get the best combination.


But to be fair to the selectors, you really can't take such a decision without being an extremely brave man. I guess had Dhoni been advised rest and failed the fitness test, it might just have been a blessing in disguise for us though.......
 

ret

International Debutant
First of all, check Dhoni's stats in his last few tests and Karthik's......



Secondly, Karthik has had relative success as an opener in difficult conditions AWAY from home. Dhoni is yet to taste any kind of real success even in the middle order AWAY from the subcontinent and that innings in Lords' he was living extremely dangerously.....


And thirdly, I agree that ideally, one of the fab four should open but they don't want to and we can't drop them. They are too much better than their replacements. So we have to live with this and try and work around that problem.... :(
I would like to play both Karthik and Dhoni, but if I have to pick one then it will be Dhoni as he is a better wk and has a decent record in the tests .... Karthik had a bad series against Pak, so don't know why r u trying to bring in the stats 8-) .... anyways let's not make this a Dhon vs Karthik, coz both of them are talented with the bat

And why can't we drop one of the big 4? Again thats one of those cliche .... can't drop, no replacement .... by your same logic, it's difficult to drop Dhoni as he has been a gr8 wk for Ind .... we can't replace him on the premise that Karthik is as good as him on the basis of what you saw

As i said the whole excercise revolves around playing the big 4 from 3 to 6, and then fitting things up .... which is a pointless excercise in my opinon and the reason why Ind cricket deserves a few set-backs
 
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honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I would like to play both Karthik and Dhoni, but if I have to pick one then it will be Dhoni as he is a better wk and has a decent record in the tests .... Karthik had a bad series against Pak, so don't know why r u trying to bring in the stats 8-) .... anyways let's not make this a Dhon vs Karthik, coz both of them are talented with the bat

And why can't we drop one of the big 4? Again thats one of those cliche .... can't drop, no replacement .... by your same logic, it's difficult to drop Dhoni as he has been a gr8 wk for Ind .... we can't replace him on the premise that Karthik is as good as him on the basis of what you saw

As i said the whole excercise revolves around playing the big 4 from 3 to 6, and then fitting things up .... which is a pointless excercise in my opinon and the reason why Ind cricket deserves a few set-backs
He made a 50 in his last test inning, on a pitch where Pakistan crumbled a little while later.... :)


And yes, I do think they can be dropped, but who will make sit out? Laxman and Sachin have been in terrific form, Sourav had some great knocks against Pakistan, and Dravid scored an important 90 in second last test we played...... You can't drop them, they don't want to open....... we are left with very few choices here......
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Indeed... I am not saying "drop" him per se... But we are talking about horses for courses here... Ideally, I would want one of the middle order guys to juz take up the mantle and say "Alright, I have a good enough technique and I have enough experience. I will open on these flat tracks"... Juz get the feeling that it is the mental side that is their problem... All 4 of them, tbh. And contrary to what you guys might feel (having read my posts here on this issue), I would actually want Dhoni to continue for at least this series and see if his batting improves. His keeping is definitely good enough and no doubt he has improved enormously.


Maybe if he flops for the whole series again, then we can think of replacements... But what I am talking about here is practically what COULD be the best for India. Sometimes you may need to replace someone who doesn't actually need to be replaced to get the best combination.


But to be fair to the selectors, you really can't take such a decision without being an extremely brave man. I guess had Dhoni been advised rest and failed the fitness test, it might just have been a blessing in disguise for us though.......
But aside from being a very good keeper, he is a perfectly fine batsman on Indian pitches.
 

ret

International Debutant
He made a 50 in his last test inning, on a pitch where Pakistan crumbled a little while later.... :)


And yes, I do think they can be dropped, but who will make sit out? Laxman and Sachin have been in terrific form, Sourav had some great knocks against Pakistan, and Dravid scored an important 90 in second last test we played...... You can't drop them, they don't want to open....... we are left with very few choices here......
which is why I said, I appreciate someone like Sehwag more than some of the big 4 coz he opens in tests which is a difficult thing to do, does that in difficult conditions without any fuss, and does a good job at that

I would start out with Ganguly, open or get out .... He lines up to open in ODIs, makes a fuss when he is dropped even though he is not playing well, lines up to bat down the order in tests [remember the controversy in Pak when Dravid suggest that he should open and he declined then Dravid opened]
 

sideshowtim

Banned
Hey Social, if you're game, have a bet on a SA win.

They're paying 7.50.

India 6.50 for the win, and a draw 1.25. You seem so confident, may as well get some reward for your brilliant prediction right? ;)
How are India shorter odds to win the match? That's kinda silly.

Will definitely put some cash on South Africa tomorrow.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
How are India shorter odds to win the match? That's kinda silly.
The people who decide these things are smart enough to know that there is a bigger chance of SA collapsing to spin on the final day than Indians. Not impossible, but just more likely than India losing 20 wickets.
 

Raghav

International Vice-Captain
This is one of the reason why I hate watching test matches in India. Totally batsman friendly or some times its total spinny tracks... That Charm of Test cricket is lost when played in India in most cases...
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
How are India shorter odds to win the match? That's kinda silly.

Will definitely put some cash on South Africa tomorrow.
As SS said, its playing the safe route.

Don't get me wrong, as a punter I definitely agree that South Africa are terrific value, but the bookies know what they are doing. They're not stupid, there is a chance that SA can collapse second innings. Its unlikely (hence the draw at 1.25), but its possible.

Its also possible India may collapse tomorrow, and lose by an innings, or just simply lose, with SA scoring a quick 200 in the second innings and India collapsing on day 5. But its still unlikely.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
This is one of the reason why I hate watching test matches in India. Totally batsman friendly or some times its total spinny tracks... That Charm of Test cricket is lost when played in India in most cases...
Shut the hell up and do watch some test cricket in India.
 

adharcric

International Coach
I wouldn't go that far. Playing the correct bowlers is one thing, but disrupting the batting to do so is a bit much. Dhoni is a far better keeper than Dinesh Karthik and Karthik's keeping has detiorated since he was last a full time Indian keeper.

To be honest, I haven't given the exact players much thought but I would have put Sreesanth and RP Singh in my side for the game as India did. However, I think that after this and the Sri Lanka series, it will be clear who hte best home bowlers are.
You clearly haven't watched much of Karthik if you're going to come out with a statement like that.
 

paddy11

Cricket Spectator
I would still want Pathan in there as back up. You don't want to bowl these guys into the dust by playing only 4 specialist bowlers.
They can always turn to Ganguly, Sehwag or Tendulkar to bowl some overs if they need a break. All three are capable part time options. Of course they couldn't do all the work but they could take some pressure of the seamers if needed.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Just noticed from CI that the game starts at 930 am. Is that a usual start time in India, or is it because of light issues late in the day?
 

ret

International Debutant
They can always turn to Ganguly, Sehwag or Tendulkar to bowl some overs if they need a break. All three are capable part time options. Of course they couldn't do all the work but they could take some pressure of the seamers if needed.
thats what Ind has been doing since ages, but nothing beats having a regular 5th bowler as he is more capable of drying runs from one end, if not pick up wkts, than part-timers .... usually the part-timers would be on coz the batting side would be doing well, so it alleviates things further for the batting side rather than builds pressure

2ndly, of the 4 regulars, if one or two have an off-day then you are basically depening upon two bowlers to do the job .... thats why more specialized bowling option always helps :)

Moreover, a team can bank on 4 bowlers, if most of them are top of the line, which is not the case with Ind .... and of the two spinners, Bhajji has been struggling to pick up wkts of late in tests. Yeah, he did get a 5 er here but conceded 160 odd runs
 

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