**Official** England in New Zealand

[aussie]

Given the quality of the pitch and the pace of the bowlers, we could get Hussain and Atherton from the commentary box and they would have no problems scoring runs in these conditions.

Well for England's sake in the building towards the 2009 Ashes with Trescothick's retirement, just as how getting Harmison bowling lethal again is much better than him wondering off for Durham now that he's been dropped, having Strauss back to his free-scoring best would be very much appreciated for the top-order.

 

[_Ed_]

You're equally entitled to your opinion, but don't be alarmed if you get the reputation of possessing a black eye patch, particularly if you don't see huge problems with the strength of NZ's test batting lineup without Fleming,

Its not a matter of packing a sad. Its facing reality.

I think it's a bit harsh to accuse him of being one-eyed, he's said he doesn't expect us to win the series.

I don't think there's anything wrong with being confident that we'll be competitive. I agree with him, particularly if Oram and McCullum find their best form. Taylor's shown a ton of promise this series, and How's looking like a solid opener...just need to find someone to join him at the top of the order.

 

[Flem274*]

You're equally entitled to your opinion, but don't be alarmed if you get the reputation of possessing a black eye patch, particularly if you don't see huge problems with the strength of NZ's test batting lineup without Fleming,

Its not a matter of packing a sad. Its facing reality.

I really wouldn't care if I did. Boohoo i got a label.

I see short term issues with inconsistency but I believe they'll adjust. I've been pleasantly surprised by Hows improvements and how quickly Taylor has adjusted to test level after SA. In fact we've had a few batting finds this summer.

But of course we're likely to lose so I must stick to the kiwi way of "Oh mate we're worse than Bangladesh they're awful wah wah wah"

 

[_Ed_]

Wow that's close.

 

[Halfpast_Yellow]

Really close. Good fielding.

 

[Flem274*]

If he bats as well as he fielded today...

 

[Bahnz]

...New Zealand will still lose heavily (and deservedly so)! Seriously, our batting is a major problem when we can't crack 200 on a road. The light at the end of the tunnel is still a long way off, and our batting troubles remain as pressing as ever. As far as I can see, there are only 2 options to replace Fleming at no.3.

The obvious option is to promote Sinclair up the order to where he usually bats. But Sinclair is so out of touch I can't see us getting many runs out of him. It's weird. He is a talented batsman, but he seems so nervous and tentative every time he goes out. The only time I can remember seeing him batting with any freedom was in the second innings at Wellington, and I get the feeling even that was only because he was batting in a lost cause.

The alternative is to move Jamie How one spot down the order to number three. The downside is of course that we'll need to find another opener (2 when you consider that this will almost certainly be Matthew Bell's last test for New Zealand). While Cumming will certainly return, Papps' woeful form in South Africa has continued into an extremely mediocre season for Canterbury. I can't really think of any other options to make a test debut. Redmond perhaps? But given that How's actually done a decent job up the top of the order, this option really seems like one step forward and two steps back.

As for the middle order, the scenario isn't as bad. Taylor's looked good and should be in the number 5 spot for a good decade or more. Ryder will play a test before the year is out, and if Oram can get his act together then you've got a solid middle order. The problem is that those players will always struggle to make runs against the new ball, so until we can get three players at the top who can consistently average over 30, expect the skittling to continue.

 

[pasag]

Well Strauss has great timing I'll give him that, pretty much just saved his career but let's hope he's kept on the shortest possible leash. Won his side the series pretty much though (or more accurately got them over the line) so excellent knock considering. It might have been easy conditions, but you still have to get the runs on the board - well played.

 

[Jono]

Lol, that Strauss knock is hilarious. Everyone was saying he needed a ton to save his career, and he does it.

 

[Laurrz]

on ya Strauss

 

[Goughy]

And striking at 65. He does make batting look easy when in form this lad

I wouldnt say in form, rather when there is little pressure against average attacks after others have done the heavy lifting.

Fair play though, a hundred is still a hundred. In other news, Im happy for Strauss.

 

[Smudge]

Does anyone know what happened at the tea-break with Stephen Fleming?

Crowe and Doull were saying he went off the handle about Crowe cracking a joke about him declaring when 274*.

Yeah, apparently he took it really badly judging by what Martin Crowe was saying. Interested in more details.....

Was nothing to do with Fleming - it was some knob named Bob Rossiter who emailed in to complain.

 

[James]

Was nothing to do with Fleming - it was some knob named Bob Rossiter who emailed in to complain.

Oh ok, thanks for clearing it up.

 

[Leslie1]

Hi guys, interesting discussion, and first post.

Too early for a post-mortem, but here's a little thing I typed up. Be good to hear from the Kiwis on here about it.

Well, let's start pretending we are in the selection and coaching panel and do some post-mortem of where this NZ side is.

Before England arrived, we were down in the dumps, lifted ourselves up a little bit from Tigers.

Ross Taylor was a 50 50, murmurs around a boy named Jesse, and a kid named Southee.

After one dayers, we were estactic, and took that confidence into test mode and batted like a champ to get 470. Since then we haven't passed 200 in the first innings of the next two test matches.

Positives?

Ross Taylor went from just an ODI player, to a permanent fixture like a Fleming in the top 4 batting lineup. Hell with first slip catches like that today, he'll take over Fleming's spot.

Southee booked himself a plane to England with the way he bowled (natural swing). 5-55 on a flat deck isn't bad. He'll enjoy English conditions even more, as they are conducive to swing.

Matthew Bell and Matthew Sinclair, get the f**k out.

Fleming retires, and we'll look forward to the new dawn of NZ batting woes which started since the 90s and never really recovered. Have we found a young batting lineup worthy of us keeping faith?

Ranking of the young guns for the future:

1. Ross Taylor
2. Jamie How
3. Brendan McCullum
4. Jesse Ryder - OH WHY??
-----------------------------

That's about it really.

What about you guys? What did you think will happen in the tour ahead. I'm going to try and stay up and watch the test matches, and reverse my work-time, since I work at home.

Another thing I would like to raise, should we think harder about dropping Vettori from the test lineup altogether? He's there to spin sides out and so far this series, he's got wow, 6 wickets from 6 innings. Hardly a world beater. If you say he's there to bat I'll slap you hard.

Chris Martin hasn't been that fantastic either, he's supposed to be our main strike bowler, yet a 125 km/hr average Mills took over that mantle. Martin for a strike bowler, against a brittle batting lineup, didn't get us enough wickets. Not even close to Sidebottom, whom he's matched up against.

I would like to see Southee develop the same unplayable outswinger stock delivery like Hadlee did late in his career as his wicket taking delivery. Still a bit inconsistent, but hey, asking too much now. Glad to see him bowl as much as he did though. Great learning xp.

 

[Flem274*]

Hi guys, interesting discussion, and first post.

Too early for a post-mortem, but here's a little thing I typed up. Be good to hear from the Kiwis on here about it.

Well, let's start pretending we are in the selection and coaching panel and do some post-mortem of where this NZ side is.

Before England arrived, we were down in the dumps, lifted ourselves up a little bit from Tigers.

Ross Taylor was a 50 50, murmurs around a boy named Jesse, and a kid named Southee.

After one dayers, we were estactic, and took that confidence into test mode and batted like a champ to get 470. Since then we haven't passed 200 in the first innings of the next two test matches.

Positives?

Ross Taylor went from just an ODI player, to a permanent fixture like a Fleming in the top 4 batting lineup. Hell with first slip catches like that today, he'll take over Fleming's spot.

Southee booked himself a plane to England with the way he bowled (natural swing). 5-55 on a flat deck isn't bad. He'll enjoy English conditions even more, as they are conducive to swing.

Matthew Bell and Matthew Sinclair, get the f**k out.

Fleming retires, and we'll look forward to the new dawn of NZ batting woes which started since the 90s and never really recovered. Have we found a young batting lineup worthy of us keeping faith?

Ranking of the young guns for the future:

1. Ross Taylor
2. Jamie How
3. Brendan McCullum
4. Jesse Ryder - OH WHY??
-----------------------------

That's about it really.

What about you guys? What did you think will happen in the tour ahead. I'm going to try and stay up and watch the test matches, and reverse my work-time, since I work at home.

Another thing I would like to raise, should we think harder about dropping Vettori from the test lineup altogether? He's there to spin sides out and so far this series, he's got wow, 6 wickets from 6 innings. Hardly a world beater. If you say he's there to bat I'll slap you hard.

Chris Martin hasn't been that fantastic either, he's supposed to be our main strike bowler, yet a 125 km/hr average Mills took over that mantle. Martin for a strike bowler, against a brittle batting lineup, didn't get us enough wickets. Not even close to Sidebottom, whom he's matched up against.
I would like to see Southee develop the same unplayable outswinger stock delivery like Hadlee did late in his career as his wicket taking delivery. Still a bit inconsistent, but hey, asking too much now. Glad to see him bowl as much as he did though. Great learning xp.

Welcome to the forum

Nice to see someone agrees with me that Martin is overhyped though he has definitely improved in the past year or so.

I don't think we're going back to the 90s. The middle order reserves are still strong. A few names for ya:

Greg Hay
Neil Broom
Rob Nicol

AND in the List A comp young opener Martin Guptill was outstanding. He has class that Papps etc lack but its very early days yet but hopefully he can carry on in his next few seasons before his NZ debut.

We aren't lacking in talent, we're lacking in technique. Get Sinclair a technique coach and he'll improve drastically. As I said before, he'd be a huge loss of talent.

How big is this England squad allowed to be? I'll assume 15:

How
McIntosh (might as well)
Fulton
Hay
Taylor
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Franklin
Mills
Martin

Southee
Mason/Patel
Ryder
Papps/Broom

IMO. Also if Sinclair gets a double hundred next innings (unlikely but he's going to have to if he wants a career) then he should be considered...maybe.

 

[Flem274*]

...New Zealand will still lose heavily (and deservedly so)! Seriously, our batting is a major problem when we can't crack 200 on a road. The light at the end of the tunnel is still a long way off, and our batting troubles remain as pressing as ever. As far as I can see, there are only 2 options to replace Fleming at no.3.

The obvious option is to promote Sinclair up the order to where he usually bats. But Sinclair is so out of touch I can't see us getting many runs out of him. It's weird. He is a talented batsman, but he seems so nervous and tentative every time he goes out. The only time I can remember seeing him batting with any freedom was in the second innings at Wellington, and I get the feeling even that was only because he was batting in a lost cause.

The alternative is to move Jamie How one spot down the order to number three. The downside is of course that we'll need to find another opener (2 when you consider that this will almost certainly be Matthew Bell's last test for New Zealand). While Cumming will certainly return, Papps' woeful form in South Africa has continued into an extremely mediocre season for Canterbury. I can't really think of any other options to make a test debut. Redmond perhaps? But given that How's actually done a decent job up the top of the order, this option really seems like one step forward and two steps back.

As for the middle order, the scenario isn't as bad. Taylor's looked good and should be in the number 5 spot for a good decade or more. Ryder will play a test before the year is out, and if Oram can get his act together then you've got a solid middle order. The problem is that those players will always struggle to make runs against the new ball, so until we can get three players at the top who can consistently average over 30, expect the skittling to continue.

That collapse shouldn't happen again. It was freakish how both sides capitulated. As I said before, if Strauss can score runs on this wicket then surely one or two of our boys can make a fighting century? Thats our biggest issue IMO, we don't score enough hundreds.

Woudn't it be ironic if Sinclair failed next innings and retained his place after all those years of decent score then dropped?

 

[tooextracool]

Well for England's sake in the building towards the 2009 Ashes with Trescothick's retirement, just as how getting Harmison bowling lethal again is much better than him wondering off for Durham now that he's been dropped, having Strauss back to his free-scoring best would be very much appreciated for the top-order.

Given that at his free-scoring best he was still largely useless I dont see why his return to form is supposed to mean anything. What is the point of returning to form when the same technical frailities when driving still remain even after scoring 160 odd?

 

[99*]

Hi guys, interesting discussion, and first post.

Too early for a post-mortem, but here's a little thing I typed up. Be good to hear from the Kiwis on here about it.

Well, let's start pretending we are in the selection and coaching panel and do some post-mortem of where this NZ side is.

Before England arrived, we were down in the dumps, lifted ourselves up a little bit from Tigers.

Ross Taylor was a 50 50, murmurs around a boy named Jesse, and a kid named Southee.

After one dayers, we were estactic, and took that confidence into test mode and batted like a champ to get 470. Since then we haven't passed 200 in the first innings of the next two test matches.

Positives?

Ross Taylor went from just an ODI player, to a permanent fixture like a Fleming in the top 4 batting lineup. Hell with first slip catches like that today, he'll take over Fleming's spot.

Southee booked himself a plane to England with the way he bowled (natural swing). 5-55 on a flat deck isn't bad. He'll enjoy English conditions even more, as they are conducive to swing.

Matthew Bell and Matthew Sinclair, get the f**k out.

Fleming retires, and we'll look forward to the new dawn of NZ batting woes which started since the 90s and never really recovered. Have we found a young batting lineup worthy of us keeping faith?

Ranking of the young guns for the future:

1. Ross Taylor
2. Jamie How
3. Brendan McCullum
4. Jesse Ryder - OH WHY??
-----------------------------

That's about it really.

What about you guys? What did you think will happen in the tour ahead. I'm going to try and stay up and watch the test matches, and reverse my work-time, since I work at home.

Another thing I would like to raise, should we think harder about dropping Vettori from the test lineup altogether? He's there to spin sides out and so far this series, he's got wow, 6 wickets from 6 innings. Hardly a world beater. If you say he's there to bat I'll slap you hard.

Chris Martin hasn't been that fantastic either, he's supposed to be our main strike bowler, yet a 125 km/hr average Mills took over that mantle. Martin for a strike bowler, against a brittle batting lineup, didn't get us enough wickets. Not even close to Sidebottom, whom he's matched up against.

I would like to see Southee develop the same unplayable outswinger stock delivery like Hadlee did late in his career as his wicket taking delivery. Still a bit inconsistent, but hey, asking too much now. Glad to see him bowl as much as he did though. Great learning xp.

We can't drop Vettori, he is not only the best bowler in the team, but he is also one of the better batsmen in the team. Combine with the fact NZC have placed total faith in him as captain makes dropping him a very bad idea. If anything is to change with Vettori it may be his batting role, I would rather see Oram dropped for a pace bowler IMO and have Vettori raised up the order. Oram is better suited to ODI's and is not going to last long in tests anyway, so we open up a spot for a new bowler (Southee, Mason, Franklin).

Martin I think has been hit hardest by the Bond issue, now all of NZ's pace bowling depends on him, all the other bowlers either 1) don't play well or 2) end up hurt.

What we need to do is show some faith in a core of players, How, Taylor, McCullum, Vettori and Martin are all capable cricketers and a good base to work a team around, Southee and Ryder (if sober) are two young players we can place with the above. That's seven men who should be in the team. Others that are on the fringe are McIntosh, Nicol, Fulton, Hay, Franklin, Mason or Patel.

Possible XI
How
McIntosh
Fulton
Taylor
Ryder (if fit?)
McCullum+
Vettori*
Franklin
Southee/Mason
Patel (or Hay above Ryder if not a spinning pitch)
Martin

12th man- Nicol/Mason/Guptil

 

[Halfpast_Yellow]

Welcome to the forum

Nice to see someone agrees with me that Martin is overhyped though he has definitely improved in the past year or so.

I don't think we're going back to the 90s. The middle order reserves are still strong. A few names for ya:

Greg Hay
Neil Broom
Rob Nicol

AND in the List A comp young opener Martin Guptill was outstanding. He has class that Papps etc lack but its very early days yet but hopefully he can carry on in his next few seasons before his NZ debut.

We aren't lacking in talent, we're lacking in technique. Get Sinclair a technique coach and he'll improve drastically. As I said before, he'd be a huge loss of talent.

How big is this England squad allowed to be? I'll assume 15:

How
McIntosh (might as well)
Fulton
Hay
Taylor
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Franklin
Mills
Martin

Southee
Mason/Patel
Ryder
Papps/Broom

IMO. Also if Sinclair gets a double hundred next innings (unlikely but he's going to have to if he wants a career) then he should be considered...maybe.

I agree with the side but I assume that Hopkins will be going over both as WK cover for McCullum and because McCullum will join the tour later due to IPL.

I actually think they might take more than 15 over due to this whole IPL thing, and maybe send a few back later?

The other option for the lineup is basically playing 3 openers, at least for the first test or 2. How/Cumming/Papps/Fulton/Taylor/Oram/ etc.

This way we don't have to debut an unknown batsman who may not make the step up for the whole series, instead we keep Hay(or other form domestic batsman we take over) as an ace in the pocket and can insert them into the lineup for the second or third test if a Papps or a Cumming or a Fulton puts in a M.Sinclair/M.Bell type performance for the first/second test. '

I'm picking at least one of them would fail hard and be out of form, but could you predict which one?

 

[Leslie1]

I agree with the side but I assume that Hopkins will be going over both as WK cover for McCullum and because McCullum will join the tour later due to IPL.

I actually think they might take more than 15 over due to this whole IPL thing, and maybe send a few back later?

The other option for the lineup is basically playing 3 openers, at least for the first test or 2. How/Cumming/Papps/Fulton/Taylor/Oram/ etc.

This way we don't have to debut an unknown batsman who may not make the step up for the whole series, instead we keep Hay(or other form domestic batsman we take over) as an ace in the pocket and can insert them into the lineup for the second or third test if a Papps or a Cumming or a Fulton puts in a M.Sinclair/M.Bell type performance for the first/second test. '

I'm picking at least one of them would fail hard and be out of form, but could you predict which one?

I do not want to see "Papps + Cumming head cases" again on our opening batsmen who do not play pace well.

That sends nightmares to aspiring kids who chose cricket to not open.

With the IPL, I think they are bringing extended squads to cover for those 5 players, and also Vaughan issued a notice they risk a place in the side if one of these extended players do really well in the practice matches. Not that Vettori, McCullum, Taylor and Oram would worry. The only guy who would worry is Mills. Imagine if Southee adapted to the swing friendly conditions and bowled out of his skin. He'll be picked ahead of Mills. If there was ever any hype around a fast-medium bowler, Southee fits the bill. Lillee likened him to 19 year old McGrath at his bowling camp in India, and Hadlee has been pushing for his inclusion for some time now. He'll be bowling well into his 30s thanks to his natural high arm action, again, like McGrath and Hadlee.

What do you guys think of Flynn? He played briefly for not many runs in the 2nd 20 20.

He's a talent, just 22.