**Official** England in New Zealand

[Richard]

I'm also hopeful that the idea of Hoggard and Sidebottom bowling together for an entire series might become more than just a hope. That could make a huge difference to the morass of mediocrity we've mostly seen served-up the last 2 years.

 

[Shoggz]

Yes, it would be strange to see two reliable bowlers in tandem for England.

Will Hoggard stay fit for the duration of the 3 tests though?

After seeming like Captain Scarlet for 5 years, he now seems to resemble Mr Bump!

 

[wpdavid]

Yes, it would be strange to see two reliable bowlers in tandem for England.

Will Hoggard stay fit for the duration of the 3 tests though?

After seeming like Captain Scarlet for 5 years, he now seems to resemble Mr Bump!

Anno domini, I suppose - at the risk of slipping into blindingly obvious mode, he's not getting any younger.

To think that a couple of years ago, we were celebrating the best batch of English bowlers since the late 1970's (or as some would have had us believe, since the 1950's). Right now, with H & H increasingly injury prone, Jones gone, Fred rarely available and the youngsters looking horrible, we're actually looking at the worst I've seen at any time apart from the mid 1980's. Depressing times.

 

[Richard]

Yes, it would be strange to see two reliable bowlers in tandem for England.

Will Hoggard stay fit for the duration of the 3 tests though?

After seeming like Captain Scarlet for 5 years, he now seems to resemble Mr Bump!

Anno domini, I suppose - at the risk of slipping into blindingly obvious mode, he's not getting any younger.

To think that a couple of years ago, we were celebrating the best batch of English bowlers since the late 1970's (or as some would have had us believe, since the 1950's). Right now, with H & H increasingly injury prone, Jones gone, Fred rarely available and the youngsters looking horrible, we're actually looking at the worst I've seen at any time apart from the late 1980's. Depressing times.

David's post corrected.

Strange thing about Hoggard is that, although he's not getting any younger, he's only 30, and even Allan Donald (who was far more ed than he's ever been) was 34 before the injuries started to take their toll on him.

I'd still put the batch which included Snow, Willis, Arnold, Old, Hendrick and Botham quite comfortably ahead (all right, that lot never completely overlapped nor were ever fit at the same time, but they came damn close) of the very brief 2004 and 2005 batch.

Anyway, as everyone knows, my feelings on that 2005 attack are that it wasn't quite what it's cracked-up to be. For a few Tests they walked on water, but that really was it. Harmison was never anything much, Jones only ever was for those 2 first-innings', Flintoff looks likely to have been only for 2 or 3 years, and Hoggard has never been World-class, just a good support operative.

But yeah, the recent times since Flintoff ceased to be fit really have been the worst times I've ever known. Easily.

 

[Flem274*]

Its a 15 man squad right? In that case have:

Bell
How
Fulton
Fleming
Ryder
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Mills
Mason
Martin

Sinclair
Hay (I don't care what Crowe thinks, Taylor is no test player)
Patel
Gillespie (if he's back in FC form, otherwise pick Southee and pray for no injuries)

 

[Flem274*]

Who are the replacements if the English attack gets injured again? Anderson would be one, Broad another, Swann for Panesar if MSP gets injured?

Another topic I want to get onto is the pitches: How should we prepare them? If we take seam bowling out of the equation therefore negating the Hoggard/Sidebottom threat to our top order then Chris Martin and Kyle Mills will struggle, prepare some lower, slower ones so the likes of Vettori, Patel, Oram, Mills (slowish bowler and as proved in the last ODI, can bowl on slowish pitches effectively) and even bring Ryder into the equation with his dibbly dobblys. It'll make Panesar very dangerous but Harmison and Sidebottom will struggle and Hoggard, whilst still accurate, will have a bit of sting taken out of him. Also the English historically struggle against spin whilst Fleming, the man we need to fire, revels in it.

If Harmison actualy hits form this series I'll be furious.

 

[Retox]

Whats Papps doing in FC? No one talks about him anymore

 

[Flem274*]

Whats Papps doing in FC? No one talks about him anymore

Thats because the radio hosts and their merry band of "knock the winers" syndrome have been let loose atm. We should never have won the series apparently and someone that rang up to defend the Black Caps got shouted down and told not to drink in the mornings. Our talkback radio is so dire.

Papps has being doing well in List A, FC is just starting up again shortly so we'll know then.

 

[Retox]

Thats because the radio hosts and their merry band of "knock the winers" syndrome have been let loose atm. We should never have won the series apparently and someone that rang up to defend the Black Caps got shouted down and told not to drink in the mornings. Our talkback radio is so dire.

Papps has being doing well in List A, FC is just starting up again shortly so we'll know then.

Does he seem to have a chance to make the team?

 

[Flem274*]

Does he seem to have a chance to make the team?

Doubt it, after his failure in SA the public want him flayed alive.

 

[Richard]

Who are the replacements if the English attack gets injured again? Anderson would be one, Broad another, Swann for Panesar if MSP gets injured?

And Tremlett has been called into the squad... for the warm-up matches... after Harmison found some twinge or other.

Frankly, it's insane that Anderson has ever been picked ahead of Tremlett since last summer. Likewise Broad, but we already knew that.

Don't see the point in Swann being in the squad myself, if MSP goes down I don't see anyone else having the slightest effect on a remotely "typical" NZ surface. On that subject...

Another topic I want to get onto is the pitches: How should we prepare them? If we take seam bowling out of the equation therefore negating the Hoggard/Sidebottom threat to our top order then Chris Martin and Kyle Mills will struggle, prepare some lower, slower ones so the likes of Vettori, Patel, Oram, Mills (slowish bowler and as proved in the last ODI, can bowl on slowish pitches effectively) and even bring Ryder into the equation with his dibbly dobblys. It'll make Panesar very dangerous but Harmison and Sidebottom will struggle and Hoggard, whilst still accurate, will have a bit of sting taken out of him. Also the English historically struggle against spin whilst Fleming, the man we need to fire, revels in it.

As I've gone through more than once, the two sides' attacks are remarkably similar: the potentially best bowler (Bond and Flintoff) is gone, perhaps forever; in Hoggard and Franklin there are two good, but recently injury-prone, long-form (and crap at OD) performers; in Sidebottom and Mills, there are two seamers who've recently started their Test careers late and confounded all expectations; in Martin and Harmison two distinctly average bowlers who bowl above themselves more often than they should; and in MSP and Vettori two excellent left-arm fingerspinners. And two tall, naturally-short-in-length bowlers who bat left-handed (one rather better than the other) right-arm seamers who need something in the pitch to be effective, Oram and Broad. Even two wholly average (in the longer form, despite their reasonable one-day credentials) right-arm fingerspinners, Patel and Swann. Even stretches to Mason and Tremlett, two decent, very tall right-armers who've been very unfortunate to miss-out.

Really, I think the series will be best if we can have pitches that offer a bit to the seamers, but not too much, not like last time when periods where wickets fell a-clatter were more common than times when run-making felt do-able without extreme fortune. I don't really want there to be much spin, because New Zealand isn't supposed to be about spin. Nor do I ever like seeing stupidly flat surfaces where 600 plays 600, and both bowling-attacks are potentially poor enough for that to come to pass. Either way, there's absolutely no set of conditions that offer either bowling-attack an obvious advantage. It'll be all about who turns-up in the best nick.

If Harmison actualy hits form this series I'll be furious.

Don't worry, he doesn't hit form over a whole series often, or indeed a whole game terribly often. One of only 2 occasions he did previously was against... yes, New Zealand.

 

[Zinzan]

And Tremlett has been called into the squad... for the warm-up matches... after Harmison found some twinge or other.

As I've gone through more than once, the two sides' attacks are remarkably similar: the potentially best bowler (Bond and Flintoff) is gone, perhaps forever; in Hoggard and Franklin there are two good, but recently injury-prone, long-form (and crap at OD) performers; in Sidebottom and Mills, there are two seamers who've recently started their Test careers late and confounded all expectations; in Martin and Harmison two distinctly average bowlers who bowl above themselves more often than they should; and in MSP and Vettori two excellent left-arm fingerspinners. And two tall, naturally-short-in-length bowlers who bat left-handed (one rather better than the other) right-arm seamers who need something in the pitch to be effective, Oram and Broad. Even two wholly average (in the longer form, despite their reasonable one-day credentials) right-arm fingerspinners, Patel and Swann. Even stretches to Mason and Tremlett, two decent, very tall right-armers who've been very unfortunate to miss-out.

QUOTE]

Good analysis that. When you break it down there isn't really much of gap between the bowling attacks especially if you add Franklin into the mix. England definately have the stronger batting lineup which is why the will quite rightly start as solid favourites.

 

[Jamee999]

Dicko 366
Flem 107
KN 102
SP 1

73 posts/match you're interested in, Rich

 

[Matt52]

(I don't care what Crowe thinks, Taylor is no test player)

Disagree. He had a rough series in South Africa but it was only his first series and its a difficult place to start. He has shown application in his odi centuries and is a genuine talent. He should be on the plane to England imo(as it doesnt look like he will be selected for the first test at least here). Perhaps over the next few series, I hope the test middle order will eventually get to Vincent/Fulton, Taylor, Ryder, and Oram at six. I do hope Fulton does well in this series.

 

[Flem274*]

Disagree. He had a rough series in South Africa but it was only his first series and its a difficult place to start. He has shown application in his odi centuries and is a genuine talent. He should be on the plane to England imo(as it doesnt look like he will be selected for the first test at least here). Perhaps over the next few series, I hope the test middle order will eventually get to Vincent/Fulton, Taylor, Ryder, and Oram at six. I do hope Fulton does well in this series.

Ross Taylor Positives

-highly talented

-stopped slogging to midwicket every ball

-seems to be developing the virtue of patience

-isn't playing around his front pad early in the innings as often as he used to

Ross Taylor Negatives

-Domestic average of 36 is fairly average compared to other FC batsmen we have, suspect it would drop considerably if his double century is taken out.

-still quite rusty around the edges in terms of technique. He is still developing as a cricketer.

-His best FC position is number five, that spot is taken by Jesse Ryder

-If he were to move up the order we would have to leave out one of Fulton, Flemng, Sinclair who are all better at 3-4 in FC matches than Taylor. Not to mention Hay, Todd, Nicol are better at 3-4 as well.

I just don't think he is ready yet I'm afraid.

 

[superkingdave]

As I've gone through more than once, the two sides' attacks are remarkably similar: the potentially best bowler (Bond and Flintoff) is gone, perhaps forever; in Hoggard and Franklin there are two good, but recently injury-prone, long-form (and crap at OD) performers; in Sidebottom and Mills, there are two seamers who've recently started their Test careers late and confounded all expectations; in Martin and Harmison two distinctly average bowlers who bowl above themselves more often than they should; and in MSP and Vettori two excellent left-arm fingerspinners. And two tall, naturally-short-in-length bowlers who bat left-handed (one rather better than the other) right-arm seamers who need something in the pitch to be effective, Oram and Broad. Even two wholly average (in the longer form, despite their reasonable one-day credentials) right-arm fingerspinners, Patel and Swann. Even stretches to Mason and Tremlett, two decent, very tall right-armers who've been very unfortunate to miss-out.

Isn't Franklin injured for the series? read something about him hoping to be fit for the tour of England.

 

[Perm]

Taylor shouldn't play at all, FFS, have people even been watching him? Slogging doesn't work in Test cricket people.

 

[Days of Grace]

Thats because the radio hosts and their merry band of "knock the winers" syndrome have been let loose atm. We should never have won the series apparently and someone that rang up to defend the Black Caps got shouted down and told not to drink in the mornings. Our talkback radio is so dire.

Papps has being doing well in List A, FC is just starting up again shortly so we'll know then.

Someone shoot Matt Gunn please FFS!!!

 

[NZTailender]

Ross Taylor Negatives

-Domestic average of 36 is fairly average compared to other FC batsmen we have, suspect it would drop considerably if his double century is taken out.

-still quite rusty around the edges in terms of technique. He is still developing as a cricketer.

-His best FC position is number five, that spot is taken by Jesse Ryder

-If he were to move up the order we would have to leave out one of Fulton, Flemng, Sinclair who are all better at 3-4 in FC matches than Taylor. Not to mention Hay, Todd, Nicol are better at 3-4 as well.

I just don't think he is ready yet I'm afraid.

1. His domestic record is fairly good compared to other FC batsmen we have. We have, what, maybe 3 - 4 established players who average over 40 (Sinclair, Fleming, Fulton and Harris) and not many average 36-40. A fair amount average 28-32.

2. He could do with a few overseas tours with an A team or playing on a foreign domestic league to help his technique, but I have seen worse players play tests for NZ.

3. Agreed to an extent. Plays well at 3.

4. Fleming's just about to retire, so he may get a shot then. But I agree that Fulton & Sinclair are better 3's and 4's. 5 could be the ideal position, so I agree somewhat with your third point. Hay needs another season to test him out before we can say he should be given a go and I'm not convinced by Todd. But certainly, Nicol and Broom deserve a shot. Have a few seasons under their belts, seem to have good techniques (have only seem them play a few times this year in T20's on Sky) and reasonable records. One of Broom or Nicol (Broom IMO) should goto England as part of the squad.

 

[ohtani's jacket]

Congrats to the Black Caps. It's a pity the NZ public only care about cricket when we lose, but good to see the home fires burning.