**Official** England in New Zealand

[Perm]

Vetorri should be shot after that game. Incredibly selfish batting - he just wanted to be the hero and hit the winning runs

Look, I don't like Vettori, but you're an idiot if you really think that.

 

[Retox]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zqzGvqlhWrs - Highlights of the 4th ODI

 

[Tim]

I don't really think Vettori can be blamed at the death there. To be honest, he shouldn't have even been batting. A couple of rash shots from Taylor, Styris as well as Fulton's bad form went some way to taking the blame.

 

[Matt52]

Im gonna make a prediction that NZ cricket will take a season to find is feet but this will be a bit of a golden period. Franklin will come back from injury soon so that will help, but I think if Rob Nicol gets a chance in the side( always thought he would make a good test opener), then, NZ will have more success and respect in the next two -five years than it has had in the past. Things seem to be coming together well.

John Wright will take over from boof, next year I think
Taylor and Ryder will form a good middle order in tests and top order in odis.
Vincent will come back into the side in the middle order and perform much better than he has in the past, finally start fulfilling some of the early promise.
McCullum is starting to dominate as an opener in odis.
Oram, Franklin, and Vettori will combine again to give us that strong lower order and 3rd 4th and 5th bowling options, but perform better with their extra experience.
Southee and Sherlock will come into the side and be better than Mills and much better than Martin.
Never seen Hay play but I hope he will be able to cope with international cricket.
Neil Broom and Daniel Flynn can be useful backups for the batting lineup.
in two years, there will be a few other guys coming through that will add to our stocks, Kane Williamson, Trent Boult and so on.

This is the situation which nz cricket fans were worried about,, the mass retirement of senior players exposing our lack of depth, but that hasnt really happened,. The team has actually done quite well. No Fleming, Astle, McMillan, Bond, and Franklin(injured), is basically half our top side, but the news guys have done better than expected. One might even suggest that our top side wasnt as high above the others in domestic cricket as we might have thought.

 

[Perm]

How now averages over 40 with a SR over 70 with 1 century and 6 50's. That's a very decent record tbh.

Average of 37.50 and strike rate of 71 against ODI standard sides. Still pretty good, and has found a niche for himself at #3 which is fairly odd, considering he's been an opener all his career.

EDIT: Also, he has never scored a List A century for Central Districts

 

[Days of Grace]

Average of 37.50 and strike rate of 71 against ODI standard sides. Still pretty good, and has found a niche for himself at #3 which is fairly odd, considering he's been an opener all his career.

Hmm, okay, so Bangladesh are not ODI standard? Despite beating India and South Africa at last year's world cup?

 

[Flem274*]

Average of 37.50 and strike rate of 71 against ODI standard sides. Still pretty good, and has found a niche for himself at #3 which is fairly odd, considering he's been an opener all his career.

EDIT: Also, he has never scored a List A century for Central Districts

Yes he has, hasn't he

I get the feeling he was picked on potential. When he first started he was very flawed but he's gotten better and better and seems very tough mentally as well. Early days but he's a player that so far is developing nicely

Im gonna make a prediction that NZ cricket will take a season to find is feet but this will be a bit of a golden period. Franklin will come back from injury soon so that will help, but I think if Rob Nicol gets a chance in the side( always thought he would make a good test opener), then, NZ will have more success and respect in the next two -five years than it has had in the past. Things seem to be coming together well.

John Wright will take over from boof, next year I think
Taylor and Ryder will form a good middle order in tests and top order in odis.
Vincent will come back into the side in the middle order and perform much better than he has in the past, finally start fulfilling some of the early promise.
McCullum is starting to dominate as an opener in odis.
Oram, Franklin, and Vettori will combine again to give us that strong lower order and 3rd 4th and 5th bowling options, but perform better with their extra experience.
Southee and Sherlock will come into the side and be better than Mills and much better than Martin.
Never seen Hay play but I hope he will be able to cope with international cricket.
Neil Broom and Daniel Flynn can be useful backups for the batting lineup.
in two years, there will be a few other guys coming through that will add to our stocks, Kane Williamson, Trent Boult and so on.

This is the situation which nz cricket fans were worried about,, the mass retirement of senior players exposing our lack of depth, but that hasnt really happened,. The team has actually done quite well. No Fleming, Astle, McMillan, Bond, and Franklin(injured), is basically half our top side, but the news guys have done better than expected. One might even suggest that our top side wasnt as high above the others in domestic cricket as we might have thought.

I've always felt we wouldn't be too bad after the retirements. Its exciting to see all the fresh faces coming onto the scene from all over the world. It is early days with this new team but they look to have some potential there. You make some interesting points but if I may I'll make a comment on them starting from the top:

-yup.

-Taylor in ODIs yes, tests I'm unsure. he'll need to improve alot. Same with Ryder for ODIs

-unlikely but I hope so, he has ability just doesn't seem to apply himself. His self doubt that he talks about now cannot have helped much either

-yup, good signs for McCullum so far. Loving it.

-Hope so. Oram and Franklin in particular are developing strongly as allrounders

-If Southee doesn't outstrip Martin I'll be shocked. Mills is one hell of a one day bowler though. If Sherlock can stay injury free from now on then I think we'll see him playing for NZ one day

-Hay is awesome. Case closed.

-Haven't really seen Broom or Flynn but they're scoring some good runs domestically.

-More likely four years rather than two for Williamson in particular. Boult may get accelerated through though.

Still don't agree with the idea of Nicol opening when we have How and Guptill showing some promise. IMO the current side and the curent up and comers will gell and start to become a very good side from 2011 onwards, assuming the injury plague and the underachieving plague stay away and hopefully visit Australia instead.

 

[Perm]

Hmm, okay, so Bangladesh are not ODI standard? Despite beating India and South Africa at last year's world cup?

That is quite correct.

Ireland beat Pakistan too, does that mean they're ODI standard?

 

[Flem274*]

Vetorri should be shot after that game. Incredibly selfish batting - he just wanted to be the hero and hit the winning runs

What an incredibly stupid post. All the sense of a dead goldfish.

 

[Flem274*]

That is quite correct.

Ireland beat Pakistan too, does that mean they're ODI standard?

Now you've set yourself up, we're a forum of opportunist smart arses remember?

Or is that just me?

 

[Richard]

I did actually point out that I understand what the rule is, I just think the rule is silly. It's not the same situation as a stumping as you've mentioned it - Vettori did complete the run by crossing the line with his bat grounded. AFAIC it's nitpicking to give someone out in that instance simply because their bat bounced a wee way into the air afterward. Fair enough if he'd never grounded the bat, but he did. Just my POV anyway, I don't expect anyone to agree with me.

I do, FTR. I really don't see why, once he's made his ground, a batsman should be eligable to be (run) out unless he leaves it, rather than comes off the ground in it.

Think that rule is a poor one and hopefully might sometime be changed.

 

[Richard]

Yup. Admittedly I didn't see a single delivery, but Anderson's figures are dire once again. Who else is in the squad - Tremlett maybe?

Just no. We already know Tremlett's awful, there's still plenty who cling to the notion that Anderson isn't. We still need plenty more evidence before the likelihood of him being gone for good.

 

[Richard]

This England ODI team looks as though it's going places, and has a good balance I tend to think. The selectors just need to retain the faith and they'll move up the ODI ladder. Especially when/if you throw Flintoff back into the mix.

Well, you'd think, if Trescothick and Flintoff were to come back tomorrow, things would currently look something like this:

Trescothick
Cook
Bell
Pietersen
Collingwood
Flintoff
Mustard
Broad
Swann
Sidebottom
Anderson \ Mascarenhas

Which still contains plenty of uncertainties (Mustard, Shah, Bell, Anderson, Broad, Collingwood). Not to mention, I find it sadly unlikely that Trescothick or Flintoff will ever return, never mind make the 2011 WC.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Well, you'd think, if Trescothick and Flintoff were to come back tomorrow, things would currently look something like this:

Trescothick
Cook
Bell
Pietersen
Collingwood
Shah
Flintoff
Mustard
Broad
Swann
Anderson

Which still contains plenty of uncertainties (Mustard, Shah, Bell, Anderson, Broad, Collingwood). Not to mention, I find it sadly unlikely that Trescothick or Flintoff will ever return, never mind make the 2011 WC.

Any reason you've overlooked Sidebottom? Our best ODI bowler by a distance for me.

 

[Richard]

 

[Goughy]

Any reason you've overlooked Sidebottom? Our best ODI bowler by a distance for me.

Statistically impressive and he certainly hasnt done a bad job at all. Never the type of bowler that can make considerable early inroads into the opposition and put them on the back foot.

In an ideal world he wouldnt be opening, however with the powerplays he is one of the few guys that can be trusted to be given the cherry.

Basically, IMO, he isnt doing anything wrong just that you would want more from the "best ODI bowler by a distance". Maybe suggests more about the quality of English ODI cricket than Sidebottom himself.

 

[wpdavid]

Well, you'd think, if Trescothick and Flintoff were to come back tomorrow, things would currently look something like this:

Trescothick
Cook
Bell
Pietersen
Collingwood
Flintoff
Mustard
Broad
Swann
Sidebottom
Anderson \ Mascarenhas

Which still contains plenty of uncertainties (Mustard, Shah, Bell, Anderson, Broad, Collingwood). Not to mention, I find it sadly unlikely that Trescothick or Flintoff will ever return, never mind make the 2011 WC.

Can't see Tres returning, so we're probably looking at the current top 6 followed by Fred at 7 if he ever does get fit. Thereafter is anyone's guess. Sidebottom & Broad, obviously & probably respectively. Swann should play. Then we're looking at Mascarenhas or Wright, I suppose. If Fred doesn't recover, Jon lewis may yet get a recall at soem stage of our summer. That's a bowler light, but they aren't exactly queuing up, are they. I wonder what happened to the two lads who opened the bowling and usually made inroads when we saw off Aus and a rather stronger NZ side 12 months ago.

Runs for cover ....

 

[Goughy]

I wonder what happened to the two lads who opened the bowling and usually made inroads when we saw off Aus and a rather stronger NZ side 12 months ago.

Runs for cover ....

4 years ago can be a long time in cricket, but the last time England may have had a possible claim to be one of the top OD sides in the World was the 2004 Champions Trophy and amazingly not 1 of that team is currently playing (only 1, Giles, has retired).

Thats quite a turnover of players, especially as there is a host more that have been tried and dropped in between.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Statistically impressive and he certainly hasnt done a bad job at all. Never the type of bowler that can make considerable early inroads into the opposition and put them on the back foot.

In an ideal world he wouldnt be opening, however with the powerplays he is one of the few guys that can be trusted to be given the cherry.

Basically, IMO, he isnt doing anything wrong just that you would want more from the "best ODI bowler by a distance". Maybe suggests more about the quality of English ODI cricket than Sidebottom himself.

There's probably something in what you say, I agree we aren't exactly overburdened with world-class one-day bowlers, but I can't help but feel you're being maybe a tad harsh on Siders. He might not be Wasim Akram incarnate, but he did pick up useful early wickets in Sri Lanka (a quick trip to cricinfo shows that in the ODIs we won, he dismissed the openers 5 times out of 6) & his figures yesterday shine out like a beacon amidst dross.

Whether he's of the absolutely top rank in ODIs is debateable, but I do reckon there's no-one fit & English-qualified to touch him currently.

 

[Goughy]

There's probably something in what you say, I agree we aren't exactly overburdened with world-class one-day bowlers, but I can't help but feel you're being maybe a tad harsh on Siders. He might not be Wasim Akram incarnate, but he did pick up useful early wickets in Sri Lanka (a quick trip to cricinfo shows that in the ODIs we won, he dismissed the openers 5 times out of 6) & his figures yesterday shine out like a beacon amidst dross.

Whether he's of the absolutely top rank in ODIs is debateable, but I do reckon there's no-one fit & English-qualified to touch him currently.

His record against Sri Lanka is remarkable. Hard to see it being replicated anytime soon and as he plays more games that record will have less of an effect on his overall stats.

He will have a very useful economy rate and be a valuable player. Certainly a guy that could bowl the middle part of the innings and keep the opposition in hand.

Im still not convinced about his value opening apart from purely based on the other choices. Which, I suppose, at the end of the day is the only important comparisson.