***Official*** Commonwealth Bank Tri-Series 2007-08

[SJS]

For me the highlights of this series so far from India's point of view have been Gambhir's and Rohits Sharma's batting, Ishant Sharma's revelatory bowling and Dhoni's aggressive captaincy on the field. Pathan's continued resurgence and consistency with the ball has been very satisfying too. Wish he was able to get the speed up another 5-6 kmph.

The disappointments have been Yuvraj's abject failure with the bat (and clearly playing with a niggle seen from his refusal to stand at his customary positions) and our reluctance yet again to drop a big name player, Sachin's and Sehwag's failure to convert starts into big scores, playing Uthappa as a batsman and sending him in at number seven, failure to try out Raina and Piyush Chawla, the obstinacy of not understanding that number three in the batting order is a pivotal position not to be treated in such a cavalier fashion.

The overall batting in the series has been very disappointing from all three sides as has been the failure of India and Sri Lanka to grab the best chance in recent memory to bring Australia down when they are reeling both from loss of some greats as well as struggling with form for the important ones left behind. On top of that Australia have, for the first time in many many years looked a ragged fielding side.

As an Indian fan I have been very disappointed and it probably shows in my posts and I expect Sri Lankan fans to feel the same.

Aussie fans may feel good since their team is right on top but the quality of opposition (while batting) provided by both India and Sri Lanka has been pathetic.

 

[biased indian]

For me we lost the game yesterday at 2 crucial point

When Hogg came dhoni continued with Yuvraj..his reason was we where behind over rate
but had we been able to dimiss hogg who is only a decent lowe order bat we could have dimissed them even before 50 overs..commenting at that time gavasakar or chappel i dont remmebr was asking to take yuvraj out of the attack but dhoni balled 2 overs with him with hogg new to crease...

Then Yuvrajs dismissal...wht the hell was he thinking that ya i have made 26 and thats enough if he and dhoni dont want seniors in the team then they should play like that ,,ok dhoni to an extent is dong that but was the reason to take such risk ..when slowly aussies was feeling the pressure..

that was a game we should have won any way if we can win the next game i would like we playing better in the finals aganist aussies ..but really we should have either sehwag,ganguly or dravid in the team not all but ideally any 2 of them or minimum one of them ..our team is toooo inexperianced ......

 

[duffer]

Oh okay I get it, Dhoni is the new devil of Indian cricket. I'll keep the eye out for that.

I wonder why it is always that there is a villain in Indian cricket at a certain point in time, yet very rarely is there one in any other country?

God damn we're evil. We have had so many villains, going by the media and the nice fan theories, we could make our own Batman films.

Dhoni seems to be more like Two-Face. Sachin and Ganguly were apparently ganging up on Dravid in the past, so I'd call them Scarecrow and Penguin.

Who is The Joker though?

It's not Indian cricket unless there's a scapegoat.

 

[SJS]

Oh okay I get it, Dhoni is the new devil of Indian cricket. I'll keep the eye out for that.

I wonder why it is always that there is a villain in Indian cricket at a certain point in time, yet very rarely is there one in any other country?

God damn we're evil. We have had so many villains, going by the media and the nice fan theories, we could make our own Batman films.

Dhoni seems to be more like Two-Face. Sachin and Ganguly were apparently ganging up on Dravid in the past, so I'd call them Scarecrow and Penguin.

Who is The Joker though?

No Jono he is not the new devil.

He is a star.

A batsman with a unique style of his own which may make him look vulnerable and yet with his versatility and grey matter the guy scores consistently in all forms of the game and in all situations and in all gears. AND he can bat in any position.

He is a vastly improved wicket keeper. From someone whose technique seemed so faulty just a year back he has shown such remarkable improvement ( visible all through as the tour to England last summer proceded) that one cant help admiring this man's determination to keep improving by learning - not a very common traits amongst Indian super stars. From someone who I felt should not be our first lie keeper he is now a front runner. Thats remarkable.

He is one of the finest captains (considering how new he is in the job). Barring Pataudi Jr. I cant think of another Indian who took to captaincy so easily and with such flair. He is not just aggressive but also imaginative and thinking while on the field. Without the thinking an overly aggressive captain can be a disaster but not MSD.

I dont know what else I am supposed to say in his praise all of which is well deserved mind you.

So whats the issue? That I have criticised something about him ? Whats wrong with that?

The problem with Indians is not just that we see either God's or Devils in our sportsmen but that once we have so slotted them we refuse to ever criticise the 'so-called' Gods or praise the 'so-called' devils.

You have to ask yourself whether it is the criticism of Dhoni (which can be aimed at any one for that matter) which is wrong or the refusal to either accept any criticism or any praise once we have decided whether we think a sportsman is a God or Devil incarnate.

For me, MSD. like the others, is just a sportsman, whom I greatly admire but do not worship or consider above reproach.

I have nothing to add.

You have the field to yourself.

 

[SJS]

For me we lost the game yesterday at 2 crucial point

When Hogg came dhoni continued with Yuvraj..his reason was we where behind over rate
but had we been able to dimiss hogg who is only a decent lowe order bat we could have dimissed them even before 50 overs..commenting at that time gavasakar or chappel i dont remmebr was asking to take yuvraj out of the attack but dhoni balled 2 overs with him with hogg new to crease...

Then Yuvrajs dismissal...wht the hell was he thinking that ya i have made 26 and thats enough if he and dhoni dont want seniors in the team then they should play like that ,,ok dhoni to an extent is dong that but was the reason to take such risk ..when slowly aussies was feeling the pressure..

that was a game we should have won any way if we can win the next game i would like we playing better in the finals aganist aussies ..but really we should have either sehwag,ganguly or dravid in the team not all but ideally any 2 of them or minimum one of them ..our team is toooo inexperianced ......

Yes we need a slightly more balanced side as far as experience in different situations is concerned.

If the selectors have an issue with fielding, let them get back someone like Kaif. Even that will help. We need a bit more experience and a bit more of the been-in-the-trenches stuff.

It is a bit too much to thrust all these youngsters in it together and that too against Australia IN Australia. We will either continue with the old foggies or bring wholesale revolutionary changes. Revolutionary changes never work unless you are in such a big mess that nothing short of that will do. A side like India hovering between 2nd and 4th spot in the rankings for quite sometime should have been able to plan the induction of new blood better.

 

[jeevan]

It's not Indian cricket unless there's a scapegoat.

We even have a formal title for it - captain

 

[adharcric]

Is part of any leadership assignment, not to fire people just because they are not perfect for your own personal situation. Even in cricket, Graeme Smith is an example of a very young captain who led a said containing many established stars and got the best out of them (Kallis,Pollock,Gibbs, Boucher). Ponting himself for sure had a superstar (Warne) who actively wanted his job and didnt approve of certain things (coach) but yet carried on, mostly succesfully. Is why they are generally regarded favorably as captains.

If you mean that the senior players were intentionally disobedient etc, would be another matter. But we dont know that any of them is actually guilty of that either.

Exactly, we don't know anything about them being disobedient but it's just as ludicrous to say such things about Dhoni. Regarding good leadership and dealing with various personalities (even difficult ones), yeah definitely but I was just reacting to SJS's friend's opinion (or at least the way he put it) which made it seem like Dhoni's a douche and the rest are angels. Bottom line is that we don't know anything about the situation and my gut feeling tells me this guy's theory doesn't have much substance.

 

[Jono]

So whats the issue? That I have criticised something about him ? Whats wrong with that?

The problem with Indians is not just that we see either God's or Devils in our sportsmen but that once we have so slotted them we refuse to ever criticise the 'so-called' Gods or praise the 'so-called' devils.

You have to ask yourself whether it is the criticism of Dhoni (which can be aimed at any one for that matter) which is wrong or the refusal to either accept any criticism or any praise once we have decided whether we think a sportsman is a God or Devil incarnate.

For me, MSD. like the others, is just a sportsman, whom I greatly admire but do not worship or consider above reproach.

I have nothing to add.

You have the field to yourself.

Criticise? Criticism is pointing out someone's flaws or mistakes. Like many, including myself, did regarding Dhoni and his reaction/comments after the game.

However talking about a conspiracy theory that Dhoni wants to throw out Tendulkar when he has the chance so he can have all the power and do what he likes is not criticism, its paranoid tabloid crap.

"MUHAHAHAHA I will have all the Indian team to myself now and can do whatever I like. No one can stop me, not even... BATMAN (aka Rahul Dravid)"




That is how seriously I take the claims from your respected cricket friend from Delhi that Dhoni is trying to kick out every senior so he has all the power.

And regarding the other common rhetoric about treating Indian star's like Gods and not being able to criticise them yadda yadda yadda. How is that even relevant to what I said?

If you say Dhoni has a poor test batting technique, I will agree because that is logical and accurate criticism of him. If you criticise his lack of temperament on the odd occasion, seen in a few of his knocks during the recent test series with Australia, I will agree for the same reasons.

If you mention some rubbish conspiracy theory about him trying to take over the team, or tension between him and Yuvraj because Yuvraj is dating Dhoni's ex-girlfriend, or some other tabloid bullcrap, then you'll receive a repsonse arguing against it. If you disagree with my response, that's fine, but don't bring up the tired and repetitive "Indian God superstar no criticism" point, because it doesn't apply to me, and many other Indian fans on Cricketweb (such as adharcric) who refuse to believe these conspiracy theories until there is some fact to them.

 

[adharcric]

I dont know mate. Whats the basis of what he is saying. Could be pure gut feel.

By the way, he is a very well known cricketer who played for India with distinction.

I dont buy it too but its still a queasy feeling.

On top of that read this in today's papers. Right or wrong it does make one feel uncomfortable as a lover of Indian cricket.

Viru on wrong side of Dhoni’s instincts
​

Adelaide, February 17: Virender Sehwag is miffed. He’s recovered completely from the hip strain and was available to play today’s game against Australia but didn’t find a place in the playing XI. Technically, he was dropped from the team and the senior India batsman is certainly unhappy over the treatment meted out to him.

Skipper Mahendra Singh Dhoni wanted to play an extra bowler on the flat Adelaide wicket to put pressure on the out-of-form Australian batsmen. He got his reading right, but only picked a wrong batsman to drop. By order of form, it should have been his deputy Yuvraj Singh who should have made way for that extra bowler after a horrendous string of failures on this tour.

Dhoni, however, was adamant that Yuvraj Singh, who came into form with 26 before gifting his wicket away, was the right choice. “We’ll not rest him for now. He is a part of the team and he’ll play all the games,” thundered Dhoni.

But why Yuvraj cannot be dropped defies logic and a blind backing by his skipper is touching the limits. Sehwag, in comparison, has had his share of success, scoring a big hundred to save India the Test match at this very venue but obviously got on to the wrong side of Dhoni’s instincts.

Interestingly, Sehwag had declared himself fit in the morning, but Dhoni had a slightly different theory. “Viru wasn’t 100 per cent fit. I was very keen to go in with five bowlers in the coming games against Sri Lanka so I thought if Viru wasn’t 100 per cent, then why not in this game? It paid off and the bowlers bowled well though we had to use Yuvraj because we were not really quick with the over-rate with four fast bowlers,” he said.

Now, how fit Yuvraj Singh is can be assessed by his positioning at mid-off, obviously trying to protect his left-knee. If Sehwag is not 100 per cent fit, so is Yuvraj.​

Hmm, I'm not feeling that uncomfortable. Sehwag may have scored a great test century but he's been mediocre in ODIs for a long time and nothing has changed. Meanwhile, Yuvraj is a superb ODI batsman and it does make some sense that Dhoni would back him. Dhoni and Yuvraj are probably the two most important batsmen in the side right now, considering they're established and will be around for a while. No-brainer for mine, Sehwag maybe shouldn't even be in the squad. Good call MSD.

 

[adharcric]

Criticise? Criticism is pointing out someone's flaws or mistakes. Like many, including myself, did regarding Dhoni and his reaction/comments after the game.

However talking about a conspiracy theory that Dhoni wants to throw out Tendulkar when he has the chance so he can have all the power and do what he likes is not criticism, its paranoid tabloid crap.

And regarding the other common rhetoric about treating Indian star's like Gods and not being able to criticise them yadda yadda yadda. How is that even relevant to what I said?

If you say Dhoni has a poor test batting technique, I will agree because that is logical and accurate criticism of him. If you criticise his lack of temperament on the odd occasion, seen in a few of his knocks during the recent test series with Australia, I will agree for the same reasons.

If you mention some rubbish conspiracy theory about him trying to take over the team, or tension between him and Yuvraj because Yuvraj is dating Dhoni's ex-girlfriend, or some other tabloid bullcrap, then you'll receive a repsonse arguing against it. If you disagree with my response, that's fine, but don't bring up the tired and repetitive "Indian God superstar no criticism" point, because it doesn't apply to me, and many other Indian fans on Cricketweb (such as adharcric) who refuse to believe these conspiracy theories until there is some fact to them.

Couldn't have said it any better. SJS, there are plenty of ignorant "fans" in India who get swayed by the media, worship cricketers and stone them the next day but I'd hope you've realized by now that the majority of posters on here are not even remotely that idiotic.

 

[SJS]

I just repeated in toto the conversation I had with a cricketer friend. Read my comments on what he said and other stuff I quoted.

• 
  [*]Interesting thoughts.
  [*]Reading too much into it... maybe... then again......Lets keep a watch and hope there is nothing seriously amiss.
  [*]I dont know mate. Whats the basis of what he is saying. Could be pure gut feel.
  [*]I dont buy it too but its still a queasy feeling.......
  [*]On top of that read this in today's papers. Right or wrong it does make one feel uncomfortable as a lover of Indian cricket.

Now read the responses - at least one of which borders on the raving and ranting of a religious fanatic - and you will see how we tend to read into posts what we want having first decided whether a poster is in our corner or the 'other'

Interesting but not surprising.

 

[Jono]

Adharcric, why'd you edit out my Dhoni/Two-Face pic from the quote?

It took me ages to make

 

[Jono]

I just repeated in toto the conversation I had with a cricketer friend. Read my comments on what he said and other stuff I quoted.

• 
  [*]Interesting thoughts.
  [*]Reading too much into it... maybe... then again......Lets keep a watch and hope there is nothing seriously amiss.
  [*]I dont know mate. Whats the basis of what he is saying. Could be pure gut feel.
  [*]I dont buy it too but its still a queasy feeling.......
  [*]On top of that read this in today's papers. Right or wrong it does make one feel uncomfortable as a lover of Indian cricket.

Now read the responses - at least one of which borders on the raving and ranting of a religious fanatic - and you will see how we tend to read into posts what we want having first decided whether a poster is in our corner or the 'other'

Interesting but not surprising.

You'd make a great politician SJS. And don't take that as an insult, because its not.

 

[SJS]

You'd make a great politician SJS. And don't take that as an insult, because its not.

I do not take it as a complement because I type straight from the heart as I do when I speak. When I wrote all that which I just quoted, I was not 'weighing' my words as you seem to be suggesting. I am fortunate to be clear in thought and able to put it in words. Its not something to be particularly proud of since its a gift not something I have done anything to acquire.

I talk straight and hence tend to clarify in detail when I am misquoted/misunderstood otherwise I would not have even bothered to go back and done all this 'cut and paste' job.

I would have been happier if instead of saying I was being politically correct or diplomatic (as you are probably hinting, you had actually gone back and checked and then told me that I was right or wrong.

To say I will make a good politician is avoiding to that much.

 

[Jono]

Why you'd make a good politician is without in fact stating so, you pretty much denigrated everyone that did not take kindly to your assertions that something untoward is occuring inside the Indian dressing room.

All your statements have been inferred by some on this board (rightly) that you are suggesting that you believe there is a possibility that Dhoni has gone mad with power, and is favouring some people over others. Yet you've tried to back track stating "oh I'm just stating that it could be true, then again it may not be true".

You're having an opinion SJS (which is fine), and then when someone tries to argue against what we believe are unfounded claims, you then reply in a fairly condescending tone about how you aren't surprised that people have replied in an emotive manner.

Of course they will. Its like me coming out and saying Sachin got out yesterday cheaply on purpose because he wants this Indian team to not make the finals, lose, and then have Dhoni be fired as captain so he can get the captaincy, and bring back his buddy Ganguly.

Its equally as rubbish.

 

[adharcric]

I just repeated in toto the conversation I had with a cricketer friend. Read my comments on what he said and other stuff I quoted.

• 
  [*]Interesting thoughts.
  [*]Reading too much into it... maybe... then again......Lets keep a watch and hope there is nothing seriously amiss.
  [*]I dont know mate. Whats the basis of what he is saying. Could be pure gut feel.
  [*]I dont buy it too but its still a queasy feeling.......
  [*]On top of that read this in today's papers. Right or wrong it does make one feel uncomfortable as a lover of Indian cricket.

Now read the responses - at least one of which borders on the raving and ranting of a religious fanatic - and you will see how we tend to read into posts what we want having first decided whether a poster is in our corner or the 'other'

Interesting but not surprising.

No, not really. The two posts that received heated replies were a) the original one where you quoted your friend's view b) the one where you talked about Indian fans blindly worshiping cricketers. In the former, I responded to your friend's view and it had nothing to do with you as a poster. In the latter, Jono responded to your implication that some of us are typical, blind-worshipping Indian fans. You didn't say anything that offensive and Jono's response was pretty fair. The posts you mention above were all fine and I'd pretty much agree with them.

 

[SJS]

Okay lets take this to its correct conclusion

Why you'd make a good politician is without in fact stating so, you pretty much denigrated everyone that did not take kindly to your assertions that something untoward is occuring inside the Indian dressing room.

Really. Could you give an example please.

Why you'd make a good politician is without in fact stating so, you pretty much denigrated everyone that did not take kindly to your assertions that something untoward is occuring inside the Indian dressing room.

Example please.

All your statements have been inferred by some on this board (rightly) that you are suggesting that you believe there is a possibility that Dhoni has gone mad with power, and is favouring some people over others.

Thats exactly what I meant by saying that people read into posts what they want. Yes I feel Dhoni seemed to be making a statement when he said on live TV that the batsmen let India down by not staying for 12 overs (some have interpreted it as 15 because four wickets had fallen by the 16th) while simultaneously clarifying that Yuvraj, Pathan and Uthappa were not to be blamed. Whats wrong with that inference of what he 'seemed' to be saying.

How does that show that I am saying 'power has gone to Dhoni's head or he is mad for it or whatever.

You're having an opinion SJS (which is fine), and then when someone tries to argue against what we believe are unfounded claims, you then reply in a fairly condescending tone about how you aren't surprised that people have replied in an emotive manner.

Be specific and give an example. I must admit that I can sound condescending at times. It is a fault that I find difficult to correct particularly due to the excessive use of sarcasm in my way of writing. Trust me I am aware of it and do try to check myself but at times the sarcasm slips through If I HAVE sounded like that here and offended anyone I am sorry but it is never my intention to offend posters. When I find difficult to handle some posters (particularly those who use particularly impolite language) I prefer to use the ignore option. Trust me it is not to avoid those posters but to prevent myself from replying in kind.

Of course they will. Its like me coming out and saying Sachin got out yesterday cheaply on purpose because he wants this Indian team to not make the finals, lose, and then have Dhoni be fired as captain so he can get the captaincy, and bring back his buddy Ganguly.

I said nothing remotely like that from my side except when I quoted the cricketer from Delhi and that too happened because of a post of Pratyush to which I replied. My comments on that post are already repeated by me.

Yet you've tried to back track stating "oh I'm just stating that it could be true, then again it may not be true".

And you cant accept that this might be an honest response? That when adharcric asked me

Does your friend have inside knowledge of the dressing room or is he just having a good time with these theories?, ​

I should not answer honestly and say as i said,

I dont know mate. Whats the basis of what he is saying. Could be pure gut feel.

By the way, he is a very well known cricketer who played for India with distinction.

I dont buy it too but its still a queasy feeling.​

You think I should have said, "Oh yes he heard Dhoni talking on the phone to someone and saying so loud and clear"

This is exactly what I mean. You have already decided that I am trying to tar Dhoni's reputation by making allegations against me and if I said I wasn't sure if it was really the case, it doesn't help you with your preconcieved notion. Hence I must be trying to 'back track"

Sorry mate I dont do such things. And I am consistent in it. Yes I do have faults, many I am afraid but dishonesty and deviousness are, fortunately not amongst those.

 

[SJS]

No, not really. The two posts that received heated replies were a) the original one where you quoted your friend's view b) the one where you talked about Indian fans blindly worshiping cricketers. In the former, I responded to your friend's view and it had nothing to do with you as a poster. In the latter, Jono responded to your implication that some of us are typical, blind-worshipping Indian fans. You didn't say anything that offensive and Jono's response was pretty logical. The posts you mention above were all fine and I'd pretty much agree with them.

I have already replied in detail about what my friend said. I fail to understand that when I had such a conversation and wanted to tell someone about it (Pratyush in this case) what I should have done to prevent the hue and cry that followed. I just added two words of my own "Interesting thoughts"

Regarding the worshipping of cricketers like Gods, yes I have very strong opinion about that and even wrote. a long article about it on the CW

Its amazing how everything else that I have said here and so many times in the past which is highly complementary of Dhoni and his captaincy is completely lost amongst the convistion that somehow I am out to denigrate him. It is this, the incapacity to take a negative comments of one's heroes. that to me sounds vaguely familiar to 'worship' where anything derogatory of the 'icon' is considered blasphemous.

Hence the references to Gods.

 

[adharcric]

I have already replied in detail about what my friend said. I fail to understand that when I had such a conversation and wanted to tell someone about it (Pratyush in this case) what I should have done to prevent the hue and cry that followed. I just added two words of my own "Interesting thoughts"

Listen, the "hue and cry" was not directed at you at all but rather to these conspiracy theories about Dhoni (I'm sure your friend isn't the only one with such a theory) with very little substance IMO. You were entitled to provide that reference and did nothing wrong - please don't make a big fuss of it.

Regarding the worshipping of cricketers like Gods, yes I have very strong opinion about that and even wrote. a long article about it on the CW

That's great. I'm glad you realize that there are many such fans in India. The point is that neither Jono nor I are like this - we have both criticized Dhoni very recently. Moreover, we are not denying legitimate claims but merely dismissing "fluff" stories (that's what your friend's opinion is at this point). Honestly, I find it insulting that you'd think we're like that. I certainly don't think you're anything like that.

Its amazing how everything else that I have said here and so many times in the past which is highly complementary of Dhoni and his captaincy is completely lost amongst the convistion that somehow I am out to denigrate him. It is this, the incapacity to take a negative comments of one's heroes. that to me sounds vaguely familiar to 'worship' where anything derogatory of the 'icon' is considered blasphemous.

Hence the references to Gods.

Once again, who said you're on an anti-Dhoni mission? You brought up a story from your friend and I responded to that; then you implied that Jono is a Dhoni-worshiper and he responded quite appropriately IMO. Nobody has personally attacked you (alright, maybe Jono crossed the line with the politician remarks but I haven't read all of that), called you a Dhoni hater or anything of the sort so calm down.

 

[SJS]

Okay peace