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Harbhajan reignites racism storm

aussie_26

School Boy/Girl Captain
why is it so had for you indians to understand that swearing is diffrent to making a racist remark? its not hard to work out the diffrence iff you are going to ban players for swearing than half of every international side will be constantly baned, in the heat of the moment players will swear

when a player swears at another player they are not having a go at them because of there skin colour but because they are frustrated
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Do you have a link for that at all HB? :)
I got it from the very same Courier story...


They got an excerpt of the law in their story there... I am obviously trusting them, although reading some comments here, it seems I probably shouldn't... ;)
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
why is it so had for you indians to understand that swearing is diffrent to making a racist remark? its not hard to work out the diffrence iff you are going to ban players for swearing than half of every international side will be constantly baned, in the heat of the moment players will swear

when a player swears at another player they are not having a go at them because of there skin colour but because they are frustrated
swearing is not that common in India and if it is normal swearing, at least it can be condoned, but if it is words like "bastard" etc. which is insulting your mother, sister, and your whole family basically... it is considered a horrible, horrible insult and given the lack of any big racial polarization in India (as opposed to caste based polarization and regional polarization), it would be considered just as bad an insult or even worse by many many Indians... I have seen fights in school games when I have been umpire over the use of the f-word.... It has gone upto the highest levels possible, trust me...
 

Johnners

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I got it from the very same Courier story...


They got an excerpt of the law in their story there... I am obviously trusting them, although reading some comments here, it seems I probably shouldn't... ;)
Haha, nah, they aren't that bad. I just missed that bit of the article this morning :mellow:
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
The difference between an offensive comment and a racist one is that the offensive comment insults someone personally, whereas a racist one disparages an enormous group of people illogically based on the colour of their skin. Harby wasn't only insulting Symonds when he called him a monkey, he was insulting everyone of West Indian descent, claiming that purely because of the colour of their skin they are like "monkeys" to him. They are less than human.
An offensive comment like "bastard" indicts one's whole immediate family as well as the following generations... Y isn't it just as bad? Racism was prevalent in a lot of western countries and hence it SEEMS to be a bigger problem but you guys have to understand that for a common man from the subcontinent, being called a "black whateveR" or a "coolie" may not be any more insulting than being called a "bastard"....


And I am sure Harbhajan hates every single West Indian to have ever lived, including the likes of Lara, whom he had compared to God at one point.... I am sure he was bristling with anger at the LLoyds, Richards', Laras and Walshs when he was having a go at Symonds..... 8-)
 

aussie_26

School Boy/Girl Captain
swearing is not that common in India and if it is normal swearing, at least it can be condoned, but if it is words like "bastard" etc. which is insulting your mother, sister, and your whole family basically... it is considered a horrible, horrible insult and given the lack of any big racial polarization in India (as opposed to caste based polarization and regional polarization), it would be considered just as bad an insult or even worse by many many Indians... I have seen fights in school games when I have been umpire over the use of the f-word.... It has gone upto the highest levels possible, trust me...
whats normal swearing than? there is only so many swear words that people use, I think with swearing you have to take into count the actual situation and make a judgement if it was over the top, basicly I dont think that a law can be made that no swearing is allowed , where as there is simply no room at all for racism, what would happen if one of the other australian players other than symonds made a few racist comments how would the indians like that?
 

slugger

State Vice-Captain
Slow Love™;1445221 said:
Just addressing a question you asked in another thread about what would happen if all the other umpires refused to stand at Perth in support of Bucknor - I have no idea what would happen, but it is interesting to see how little solidarity there is between the umpires, considering that they could possibly wield some power if they put their heads together. .
I suspect that there is nothing to gain, by sticking with bucknor on the perth issue, looking at it from outsider, what would there reason be what would they achieve by doing so.. maybe standing up in unity, to demonstrate one team doesnt rule the game but doesnt that statement just hilight the exact opposite.. that the umpires are bigger than the game???.... Im sure thats the last statement they would want to put across.. to the public.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah, I feel some sympathy. I don't feel that he went out of his way to make poor decisions. It's a brutal job, and because of uproars like this, you tend to get remembered far more for the way your career ends than when you were at your peak.

Just addressing a question you asked in another thread about what would happen if all the other umpires refused to stand at Perth in support of Bucknor - I have no idea what would happen, but it is interesting to see how little solidarity there is between the umpires, considering that they could possibly wield some power if they put their heads together. It makes me recall also when Doctrove was expected to testify at Hair's hearing last October (I think) in his defence, and in the end he just didn't show, mumbling some excuse about being not being able to catch a plane in time.
I just leave the forum for a few days and Slow Love comes back...I guess I should have made that decision much earlier. Welcome back mate, hope you stay this time. :)

Anyways, I feel Umpires are treated like **** by both the administrators and the players. Gone are the days when umpires used to be an important and almost always a respectable entity in a cricket match. The role and treatment of umpires today has become a joke, there is no respect for them at all. One poor decision and accusations of bias/racism/incompetency etc are thrown, it is just so annoying.

And to answer your question, No its not going to happen, there is just too much at stake.
 

Tony

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
An offensive comment like "bastard" indicts one's whole immediate family as well as the following generations... Y isn't it just as bad? Racism was prevalent in a lot of western countries and hence it SEEMS to be a bigger problem but you guys have to understand that for a common man from the subcontinent, being called a "black whateveR" or a "coolie" may not be any more insulting than being called a "bastard"....


And I am sure Harbhajan hates every single West Indian to have ever lived, including the likes of Lara, whom he had compared to God at one point.... I am sure he was bristling with anger at the LLoyds, Richards', Laras and Walshs when he was having a go at Symonds..... 8-)
How does Punter who was in the cricket academy at 17 and has just been a full time cricketer, liked to wrestle with Lang after the game, going to the TAB possibly know that when he called someone a bastard he was insulting their whole family. These guys just got media training last year or so they need some of this kind of advice as well - the chat with Kumble before the next test might resolve it for us
 

LongHopCassidy

International Captain
An offensive comment like "bastard" indicts one's whole immediate family as well as the following generations... Y isn't it just as bad? Racism was prevalent in a lot of western countries and hence it SEEMS to be a bigger problem but you guys have to understand that for a common man from the subcontinent, being called a "black whateveR" or a "coolie" may not be any more insulting than being called a "bastard"....


And I am sure Harbhajan hates every single West Indian to have ever lived, including the likes of Lara, whom he had compared to God at one point.... I am sure he was bristling with anger at the LLoyds, Richards', Laras and Walshs when he was having a go at Symonds..... 8-)
You have to remember too, that cultural sensitivity is a two-way street. 'Bastard' in ocker parlance is little more than a throwaway term in the Australian context, and not uncommon between friends (of all people). It's never considered anything more than a mild profanity by any level of society in Australia, and frequently not even that. Therefore, it's entirely plausible that Hogg did not mean 'bastard' as a barb at Bhajji's lineage but as a force of habit, however ill-advised. So for all the insulting connotation it carries in the Indian context, one would do well to keep in mind that in Australia it carries a relatively benign meaning, and most probably wasn't meant in the way it was taken. In fact, I'd be floored if Hogg had any idea about the bearing his words are being dressed up to have by people in this thread. It's worth registering by Indians of the trivial nature of 'bastard' in Australia and its frequency as a throwaway expletive.

Harbhajan, conversely, knew precisely what would rile Symonds. There's no denying he had countless media and societal exposure - at home, no less - to the fact that Symonds was being likened to a monkey, and that he would take exception to it. He knew the consequences of what was being said without having to read into the etymological meanings and cultural significance of it (which is what's being demanded of Hogg here, if I may speak bluntly).

I'm not trying to incriminate Harbhajan or extenuate Hogg. I'm just stating it's frankly absurd to state the nature of the cases are similar. Equally, a cultural misunderstanding must come from both sides for it to hold offence to either.
 
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Slow Love™

International Captain
I just leave the forum for a few days and Slow Love comes back...I guess I should have made that decision much earlier. Welcome back mate, hope you stay this time. :)
Yeah, when I saw you'd left, I was straight back into the fray. ;) Just kidding, good to see you too mate, hope all's well.

At the risk of complicating this mess further, I think maybe a bit of a false dichotomy is being built between the term "bastard" being an absolutely casual term in Australia as opposed to being offensive in India. Obviously we don't generally use the term to make a direct assertion about somebody's lineage, but context is everything. If I say to one of my mates "hand over the friggin' sauce, ya bastard", it's obviously nothing, but I wouldn't call someone I wasn't well acquainted with a bastard unless they'd given me a direct social cue that it was OK.

I once almost got my face punched in when I said to a friend of mine and someone I didn't know well "are you bastards coming in?". I actually meant it in a friendly fashion, but the other guy completely jumped down my throat (and he was nothing but an absolute ocker Australian) and I (and my friend) had to do some pretty fast talking to avoid a serious punch-on.

This aside though, the term is clearly used fairly frequently in an insulting or aggressive tone - I feel like some of we Aussies at the forum have oversold it's "universal" friendly colloquial use. I would suspect that when Hogg said it to Kumble/Dhoni (from what I can gather he has confessed to saying it), it was probably not meant in a really affectionate way.
 

pasag

RTDAS
Don't want to take the official thread away from actual cricket discussion so will post here:

Kumble's column.

Quite interesting and clarifies certain things which were until now only speculation. I didn't like how he was still going on about the Clarke catch, is it his way of sort of punishing Australia for umpires/racism allegations? I think those things (claimed catches) are being blown out of proportion. If you feel Australia broke the pact, that's fine and you can disregard it for the future, but I'm not sure why they feel so strongly about it still and question whether it would be brought up to this extent had other issues not occurred.

However, I liked the fact, to his credit, he was critical of his teams performances towards the end of the match and praised Hussey's and Hayden's innings without bringing the umpiring up even though he did have every right to.
 
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social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Don't want to take the official thread away from actual cricket discussion so will post here:

Kumble's column.

Quite interesting and clarifies certain things which were until now only speculation. I didn't like how he was still going on about the Clarke catch, is it his way of sort of punishing Australia for umpires/racism allegations? I think those things are being blown out of proportion. If you feel Australia broke the pact, that's fine and you can disregard it for the future, but I'm not sure why they feel so strongly about it still and question whether it would be brought up to this extent had other issues not occurred.

However, I liked the fact, to his credit, he was critical of his teams performances towards the end of the match and praised Hussey's and Hayden's innings without brining the umpiring up even though he did have every right to.
Self serving and should've known better than to approve its' release
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
However, I liked the fact, to his credit, he was critical of his teams performances towards the end of the match and praised Hussey's and Hayden's innings without brining the umpiring up even though he did have every right to.
Kumble is a very sporting person and is hardly the kind who will try to shift the blame from his own performances or his team's performances. He has been a true sportsman right through his career.

Some interesting points from the article for me:

1. I cannot comment on what I thought of the proceedings, but the fact that we have appealed should make things self-evident.

A racist allegation is a big thing and if some one is charged with it, it sticks with him for life. It is only fair for the team to back him up if they feel he is being unfairly treated on the issue.

2. He is clear that he has been willing to go and has gone his half of the bridge but Ponting hasn't made the effort from his side.

3. The breaking of the agreement is seen as majorly poor from Kumble and reasonably so.
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
A racist allegation is a big thing and if some one is charged with it, it sticks with him for life. It is only fair for the team to back him up if they feel he is being unfairly treated on the issue.
I think this is something some people - at least, over here, I've tried to avoid reading anything and everything about it from all over The World because I've got sick of this very quickly - have understated.

If you're publically labelled a racist when you're not, you contest it and you demand an apology for a false accusation. I (and Jono as well) said exactly the same thing back in 2005 when the Smith-Hinds-Bravo thing happened.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
whats normal swearing than? there is only so many swear words that people use, I think with swearing you have to take into count the actual situation and make a judgement if it was over the top, basicly I dont think that a law can be made that no swearing is allowed , where as there is simply no room at all for racism, what would happen if one of the other australian players other than symonds made a few racist comments how would the indians like that?
First of all, for me, any word that doesn't slur your family or near and dear ones can be considered "normal""...


And secondly, I am not sure Harbhajan is a racist juz because he said something to Symonds... We have all seen how he has behaved against Windies and South Africans etc. and I don't think he would have had racist intentions in his heart when he called Symonds (IF he at all did) anything... So again, as you said with swearing, the intent may not always be as malignant as it may seem. That doesn't mean you can forgive it, can you? What is offensive to one culture, should be taken out... There cannot be any two ways about it, because otherwise, it will seem like taking sides. I know it may cut out a lot of fun and it may be a bit unnecessary, but its the only fair way to go abt it.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
How does Punter who was in the cricket academy at 17 and has just been a full time cricketer, liked to wrestle with Lang after the game, going to the TAB possibly know that when he called someone a bastard he was insulting their whole family. These guys just got media training last year or so they need some of this kind of advice as well - the chat with Kumble before the next test might resolve it for us
I am not saying Punter should have known either.. As you said, it is all stuff that need to be sorted out behind the scenes between the two captains, preferably along with their sides.


The latter part of that post of mine was more of a sarcastic response to what sst had posted.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
You have to remember too, that cultural sensitivity is a two-way street. 'Bastard' in ocker parlance is little more than a throwaway term in the Australian context, and not uncommon between friends (of all people). It's never considered anything more than a mild profanity by any level of society in Australia, and frequently not even that. Therefore, it's entirely plausible that Hogg did not mean 'bastard' as a barb at Bhajji's lineage but as a force of habit, however ill-advised. So for all the insulting connotation it carries in the Indian context, one would do well to keep in mind that in Australia it carries a relatively benign meaning, and most probably wasn't meant in the way it was taken. In fact, I'd be floored if Hogg had any idea about the bearing his words are being dressed up to have by people in this thread. It's worth registering by Indians of the trivial nature of 'bastard' in Australia and its frequency as a throwaway expletive.

Harbhajan, conversely, knew precisely what would rile Symonds. There's no denying he had countless media and societal exposure - at home, no less - to the fact that Symonds was being likened to a monkey, and that he would take exception to it. He knew the consequences of what was being said without having to read into the etymological meanings and cultural significance of it (which is what's being demanded of Hogg here, if I may speak bluntly).

I'm not trying to incriminate Harbhajan or extenuate Hogg. I'm just stating it's frankly absurd to state the nature of the cases are similar. Equally, a cultural misunderstanding must come from both sides for it to hold offence to either.
tbh, I dunno why my point has been construed like this here. Obviously, my wordings weren't that great.


My point is, I don't deny that IF Bhajji had said that word, he should be punished, because he SHOULD have known what that word meant to Symonds after all these incidents and if he didn't, he should be punished simply for being such an idiot.


And I understand that guys like Hogg may not know what certain words mean to guys from other sides, although I am sure he would have known, having been around India a few times now. But IF there is a repeat, he should be penalized and this time, he should still be fined as I am not sure how he COULD not have known that, in this age of all these cross-cultural stuff.. But that aside, I don't think IF Bhajji had said what he did and Hogg had said what he is supposed to have said, they are the same as Bhajji MUST have known...
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Kumble is a very sporting person and is hardly the kind who will try to shift the blame from his own performances or his team's performances. He has been a true sportsman right through his career.

Some interesting points from the article for me:

1. I cannot comment on what I thought of the proceedings, but the fact that we have appealed should make things self-evident.

A racist allegation is a big thing and if some one is charged with it, it sticks with him for life. It is only fair for the team to back him up if they feel he is being unfairly treated on the issue.

2. He is clear that he has been willing to go and has gone his half of the bridge but Ponting hasn't made the effort from his side.

3. The breaking of the agreement is seen as majorly poor from Kumble and reasonably so.
The things I have against it are:

1. It ignores the fact that Symonds went down the route of seeking an apology from Harby in Mumbai and it basically amounted to zero in Sydney so a more formal complaint was justified

2. Ponting is obviously backing his player in the same way as Kumble is

3. It implies that Ponting broke their agreement by claiming a catch that wasnt - this pointedly ignores all video evidence to the contrary and implies that the opposing captain is a cheat

4. It claims that the Australians appealed when they knew something wasnt out thereby contravening the spirit of the game again - what is the guy a mind reader?

Little wonder the mindless patriots are up in arms when such a one-sided hatchet job is published under the name of the Indian captain
 

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