Harbhajan reignites racism storm

[silentstriker]

The difficulty there is that sides that have players who speak different languages can basically get away with anything (according to FSN, Sharma was hardly polite after Symonds was given not out) - so do you deem something to be offensive if the opposition doesn't understand it?

If you are somehow offended by something you don't understand - sure report them and explain yourself at the hearing. If you truly feel that way, I've no problem with it going through the process.

 

[sideshowtim]

I'm sorry but I'm done for the day. That's a ludicrous one-way expectation and I have nothing to say to it other than that if that is the expectation of the Australian players, I hope every single word uttered is relentlessly reported until some changes are made on the field.

No, it goes both ways. If there is something that isn't offensive in India that is offensive here, our players aren't going to report it. The monkey jibe would've been absolutely fine and understandable unless the whole thing in India had never happened.

 

[sideshowtim]

If you are somehow offended by something you don't understand - sure report them and explain yourself at the hearing. If you truly feel that way, I've no problem with it going through the process.

You don't realise what a waste of time and joke this would make cricket? If after every match everyone was dobbing on each other for petty little things they personally found offensive? What a load of crap. Racism should be eradicated from the game at all costs, everything else is fair game.

 

[sideshowtim]

The difference between an offensive comment and a racist one is that the offensive comment insults someone personally, whereas a racist one disparages an enormous group of people illogically based on the colour of their skin. Harby wasn't only insulting Symonds when he called him a monkey, he was insulting everyone of West Indian descent, claiming that purely because of the colour of their skin they are like "monkeys" to him. They are less than human.

 

[silentstriker]

The difference between an offensive comment and a racist one is that the offensive comment insults someone personally, whereas a racist one disparages an enormous group of people illogically based on the colour of their skin. Harby wasn't only insulting Symonds when he called him a monkey, he was insulting everyone of West Indian descent, claiming that purely because of the colour of their skin they are like "monkeys" to him. They are less than human.

We aren't really disputing whether the word 'monkey' is racist. No sane person disputes this.

 

[silentstriker]

As I said, our society generally accepts that being 'offended' is part and parcel of every day life.

So we are now using Australian cultural norms to govern the game? So McGrath's wife was going through cancer treatment, if I make a snide remark about that, it's fair game according to you right?

 

[sideshowtim]

So we are now using Australian cultural norms to govern the game? So McGrath's wife was going through cancer treatment, if I make a snide remark about that, it's fair game according to you right?

Yes, but I'd also have no problem McGrath giving it back to you twice as badly though.

 

[Slow Love™]

Childish all-round, really. Neither side has exactly covered themselves in glory on this one.

The one I really feel sorry for in this whole mess is Bucknor. He's been dropped like a hot rock by the ICC. Anyone know where he is anymore? Is he even still alive? Does anyone even care?

Yeah, I feel some sympathy. I don't feel that he went out of his way to make poor decisions. It's a brutal job, and because of uproars like this, you tend to get remembered far more for the way your career ends than when you were at your peak.

Just addressing a question you asked in another thread about what would happen if all the other umpires refused to stand at Perth in support of Bucknor - I have no idea what would happen, but it is interesting to see how little solidarity there is between the umpires, considering that they could possibly wield some power if they put their heads together. It makes me recall also when Doctrove was expected to testify at Hair's hearing last October (I think) in his defence, and in the end he just didn't show, mumbling some excuse about being not being able to catch a plane in time.

 

[Johnners]

Don't see anything wrong with what I said there...A lot of people have been arguing the same thing so...

Wasn't just that post, but quite a number of others. You're basically doing your best to further the "Us vs. Them" war, which is hardly desirable. Your posts make it sound like everyone should just bow to what Australia wants, and as for what others think...well who gives a flying duck. This is best shown by your "Other nations just have to suck it up" comment.

 

[silentstriker]

Yes, but I'd also have no problem McGrath giving it back to you twice as badly though.

So according to you, cricket rules should be governed by Australian culture. That's fine if you believe that, but that is a very shallow view of a global game.

 

[sideshowtim]

Yeah, I feel some sympathy. I don't feel that he went out of his way to make poor decisions. It's a brutal job, and because of uproars like this, you tend to get remembered far more for the way your career ends than when you were at your peak.

Just addressing a question you asked in another thread about what would happen if all the other umpires refused to stand at Perth in support of Bucknor - I have no idea what would happen, but it is interesting to see how little solidarity there is between the umpires, considering that they could possibly wield some power if they put their heads together. It makes me recall also when Doctrove was expected to testify at Hair's hearing last October (I think) in his defence, and in the end he just didn't show, mumbling some excuse about being not being able to catch a plane in time.

Hair has come out and shown support for Bucknor. The only umpire to do so believe.

And yes, I certainly feel a mountain of sympathy for Bucknor. This will likely tarnish his wonderful career which is a shame. I would've felt more if he was made to stand in the next Test though. Can you imagine the pressure on that poor man?

 

[sideshowtim]

So according to you, cricket rules should be governed by Australian culture. That's fine if you believe that, but that is a very shallow view of a global game.

I don't feel that insulting someone for having cancer is savoury at all, but it doesn't cross the line of racism, so while it would make you a prick for saying it, you wouldn't have broken any laws.

 

[silentstriker]

I don't feel that insulting someone for having cancer is savoury at all, but it doesn't cross the line of racism, so while it would make you a prick for saying it, you wouldn't have broken any laws.

But your argument to this comes down to 'because Australians would not find it offensive, it is not offensive.' To be honest, if my wife had cancer, and someone made a snide remark about her illness, they would quickly get a stump down their throats. That's just honesty here. I would be surprised if McGrath did anything differently either.

 

[Tony]

So according to you, cricket rules should be governed by Australian culture. That's fine if you believe that, but that is a very shallow view of a global game.

That's the issue - get the captains together and work through it - reporting Bhajji was not the way to do it.

On the other hand we teach some of them at the cricket academy, Les Burdett went there to talk about pitch preparation......we may as well hold a conference in India and teach them about appropriate sledging

 

[sideshowtim]

But your argument to this comes down to 'because Australians would not find it offensive, it is not offensive.' To be honest, if my wife had cancer, and someone made a snide remark about her illness, they would quickly get a stump down their throats. That's just honesty here. I would be surprised if McGrath did anything differently either.

That's not what I'm saying mate. It works both ways. Here's an example, say that in South Africa, joking about cancer is OK and it isn't in Australia. A South African player makes a joke about an Australian with cancer. While it would be unsavoury, and pretty distateful, I wouldn't condone reporting the player as that would be getting far too precious.

The difference with the monkey taunt by Harby is that it was quite obviously racism.

 

[honestbharani]

Yeah, it's very immature stuff by the Indians.

If bastard truly was an offensive word to Indians, it would've come out years ago and a charge would've already been laid on a cricketer and we'd be no longer allowed to say it to them.

Bastard was, and is always offensive to Indians...


Juz try to run around using that word in local playgrounds around Chennai, for instance... People have been expelled from institutions for life for using that word, very much in a friendly way.


I reckon the only reason Indians never really brought it out in the open is the whole "lets keep what happens on the field, on the field and not bring it outside" mentality... That doesn't mean it is not offensive to us, though...

 

[honestbharani]

Bastard means ''mom is a whore '' can be considered offensive .It is in India .If u take that way .May not be racist .

I don't think there is any racist word for Indians .They get offended by certain personal insults .

Level 3 offenses is not JUST racism, btw... The official word abt that section says "racist abuse" but if u read it fully, it includes questions of descent etc. as well.


And the Indians are putting Hogg in the box pursuing that "descent" line.... Obviously, it is just tit for tat, but it is not like they are being completely stupid abt the understanding of that rule and section.

 

[honestbharani]

Yep, find it somewhat difficult to believe they haven't been called that or worse by the Aussies over the years.



Nothing because there's doubt that it even happened.

funny that, because there is doubt whether Harbhajan called Symonds a monkey either and yet people seem to think it is true...

 

[Johnners]

Level 3 offenses is not JUST racism, btw... The official word abt that section says "racist abuse" but if u read it fully, it includes questions of descent etc. as well.

Do you have a link for that at all HB?

 

[honestbharani]

We're only going to report racism.

If we were going to start reporting stuff we found 'offensive' that wasn't racist, I'm sure we'd have a mountain of charges on your blokes too.

Basically, the line should be drawn at racism. To suggest that 'monkey' is even in the same ballpark is 'bastard' is absurd, and the Indians should be ashamed of themselves for such a weak attempt to twist things back on to the Australians. Sledging is a part of the game, always has been, and it's part of the 'blokey' nature of the sport here in Australia, and it's quickly spreading. Racism can't be tolerated though, and never has been, so I don't see why we should be tolerating it now.

Who do mean by "we" here?


Personal abuse has led to more riots and fights in India than racism. So it might be a bigger issue for Indians. Aussies, on the other hand, seem to be more cool abt personal abuse and yet they take offence to racist remarks because of their racism issues in the past... Why should we follow the Australian way here? AFAIC, if some word is offensive to any particular culture, that just needs to be banned from the cricket field, end of story.