Congratulations Murali

[FRAZ]

Seriously, it's a joke; Murali has a vested interest in not being a faker in testing and those who say so essentially are saying that Bruce Elliott and his team are too stupid to be able to tell the difference between what he was sending down in matches and what he was sending down in testing. That's arrogant in the extreme and part of why the debate even continues at all.

So the point being ?

 

[pup11]

One thing is for sure only a spinner would be able to break this record of Murali (that's if ever this record is broken) because it almost impossible for a fast bowler to have that long enough career to take 1000 odd test wickets, no bowler who is currently playing in world cricket has a chance to get anywhere near Murali's record unless Warney decides to be cheeky enough to come out of his retirement!

 

[JBH001]

Yes, but just because Murali is a nice man and this saga has gone on for years, does not mean that people should tire of arguing that his action is suspect, if that is what they think. I think there's a tendency, just because this thing has dragged on for years, to say: "Oh look, I'm sick of the debate, let's just get on with it". But I will never tire of arguing that the rules were changed to accomodate Murali and that, in match conditions, his action is very suspect. And I don't care where he comes from, or how nice of a person he is. I love the game (moreso than I love any team) and think that it should be played to its rules, and that those rules should not be altered to accomodate particular people. Put simply, people shouldn't just roll over and say: "Oh this has gone on forever, let's just shut up and move on".

Apart from, and to echo what Top_Cat and Sanz and Dasa said, it should also be noted that the rules were changed to accommodate all bowlers. Given the context of this thread your comments are in poor taste and very ungracious. If you have nothing good to say in a Murali tribute thread (especially when your pov is well known on CW) then dont say it.

 

[FRAZ]

it should also be noted that the rules were changed to accommodate all bowlers. .

Because pointing fingers at Muralis or Shoaib Akhtars might have also resulted in the suspensions of many others who go un detected .

 

[JBH001]

Cricinfo are so bloody annoying.

"As a matchwinner, Murali has no rival. In the 45 Tests that Sri Lanka have won with him in the team, he has taken a phenomenal 373 wickets - that's more than eight per match - at an average of 15. Only Warne, with 510, and Glenn McGrath (414) have taken more wickets in wins."

Best matchwinners in Tests (at least 200 wickets in wins)

Muttiah Muralitharan 45 373 15.19 41.4 36/ 16
Malcolm Marshall 43 254 16.78 38.1 17/ 4

etc.

Yet the doctored stats show if you remember a certain matchwinner from NZ.

Richard Hadlee 22 173 13.06 33.5 17/8

Not to demean the man but there has been a side that has relied on a bowler more so than Sri Lanka has on the Wizard, bloody cricinfo.

Note:

Shane Bond 9 57 14.21 28.5 3/1

That's the doctoring of it though, look at the amount of wins 45 versus 22, I know that they are both fantastic match winners but Hadlee's performance if you only looked at the stats was a lot more influential to whether NZ won or not, the list they gave was specifically made to give Murali the top spot and Hadlee went without a mention.

That was the point I was trying to make, was just annoying not to see his name in there when he was one of the best ever in that regard.

Fair enough, I suppose, but if they had reduced the standard to 150 wickets would that not have meant that they were toying with the figures to support Hadlee?

In any case, Hadlee's figures are outstanding. Its especially worthwhile to notice the marked difference in both their figures in wins vs their career figures.

http://content-nz.cricinfo.com/slveng/content/current/story/323485.html

Both of them really come to the party and drive their respective teams to victory.

The complete comparison is here

Murali

unfiltered           115 6346.2 15331 704  9/51  16/220  21.77  2.41  54.0 60 20
filtered              45 2577    5667 373  9/51  16/220  15.19  2.19  41.4 36 16

Hadlee

unfiltered            86  21918  9611 431  9/52  15/123  22.29  2.63  50.8 36  9
filtered              22   5808  2261 173  9/52  15/123  13.06  2.33  33.5 17  8

However, what is really astonishing is Hadlee's perfomance in the 7 wins away from home. They are better than his figures at home in wins. Murali (probably as expected) is the other way, but there is not much of difference even then and his figures in away wins remain superlative (and again, markedly better than his overall away figures).

Murali home and away in wins

home                  31 1779.5  3794 259  9/51  13/115  14.64  2.13  41.2 26 12
away                  14  797.1  1873 114  9/65  16/220  16.42  2.34  41.9 10  4

Hadlee home and away in wins

home                  15   3809  1521 109  7/23  11/58   13.95  2.39  34.9  9  3
away                   7   1999   740  64  9/52  15/123  11.56  2.22  31.2  8  5

However, you may be right Athlai. If you discount Murali's performances in wins vs Zim and Bang (that is if we accept the argument that neither of them are and never have been test standard, something that I find questionable and at least arguable) and Hadlee's figures vs Sri Lanka then Hadlee truly emerges as the greater and perhaps the greatest ever matchwinner for his team - putting Murali into second place. So that is a good point you have raised.

But, one final point needs to be taken into consideration when thinking of Murali the bowler and Murali the matchwinner. As far as I know, Murali is the only spinner in history to have carried his country's bowling attack for the majority of his career - I can think of no other spinner who has consistently done the same over a similar span of time. There are plenty of pace bowlers who have carried their country's attack (apart from Hadlee, off the top of my head I can think of Maurice Tate, Alec Bedser, and Garth McKenzie) but, afaik, there has been no other spinner. This latter fact really sheds light on the abilities and the load carried by Murali over the years, and makes clearer the superlative and phenomenal bowler that he is.

 

[pasag]

Nobody is asking you to move on, but there is no need to do it in every thread.

Agreed.

If anyone has the urge to discuss Murali vs Warne they can do so here or if they'd like to discuss his action they can do so here amongst other places. There's no problem with discussing these things on the forum, as long as it's in the appropriate place.

 

[JASON]

Here's some high quality Journalism from Australia's best at personal attacks Robert Craddock ....Note comments like "Chipped tooth Grin" etc....shows how smart the author is and what level of journalism he is pandering to and the type of readership he is catering...

Critics attack Murali recordArticle from: Jon Pierik and Robert Craddock

December 04, 2007 12:00am
MUTTIAH Muralidaran became the world's greatest Test wicket-taker last night and critics immediately demanded his name be scrapped from the record books.

(critics ? mostly Australians and some Kiwis sucking upto the Aussies) Everyone else has moved on...but these morons are stuck and unable to move on... jealousy and hatred brings out the worst in these people. I was listening to an Idiot and half Wit on NZ Radio /Radio Sport called Tony Veitch who has half a brain and sucks upto the Australians like literally licking their backsides ...lambasting Murali this morning....I was amazed at the amount of jealousy and half witted some of these so called sports Journos are for failing to learn about Murali or the issues with regard to his action.


The Sri Lankan spin wizard claimed his 709th wicket, and broke Shane Warne's world record, when a planned off-spinner failed to turn and his skidding delivery smacked into Englishman Paul Collingwood's stumps in the first Test in Kandy.

The moment sparked rapturous applause by 6000 fans at the Asgiriya Stadium in Muralidaran's home town and another chipped-tooth grin by the man who has polarised the game like no other player.

As Muralidaran finished with 6-55, claiming an amazing 61st five-wicket haul in his 116th Test, debate raged over the authenticity of his rubber-wristed action and whether he deserved the title of being the game's greatest bowler.

Former Cricket Australia chairman and Test umpire Col Egar, who famously no-balled Australian paceman Ian Meckiff for throwing, took no joy from seeing Muralidaran snatch the record.

"I couldn't care less about him," Egar said. "As far as I am concerned they should have a separate record for bowlers with illegal actions.

"Warne deserves the record and in my book he will always be the record holder. I've got a photo at home of Murali's arm bending at 48 degrees.

"The tests they did on him were rubbish. The only tests that matter are those conducted under match conditions.

"The administrators of the game have got to take the blame for letting his action go."

Shane Warne's long-time mentor, Terry Jenner, said the International Cricket Council's existing laws left a question mark hovering over Muralidaran's action.

"It's a bit late at 709 wickets to still be wondering about his action," he said.

"One day they will be able to satisfy those who, with their naked eye, aren't comfortable with it."

First called for throwing on his maiden tour of Australia in 1995, Muralidaran's controversial action has been repeatedly probed by the ICC through a series of exhaustive biomechanical tests.

Former Australian wicketkeeper Ian Healy said he had "no problem" with Muralidaran holding the record.

"Having had a really close look at his action this summer, I am happy enough going along with him being the world record holder ," he said.

"I have seen a written report of one of his tests of a couple of years ago and that was very convincing.

"If we are going to appoint these experts and these experts will certainly stand by their word, then I think we have got to go along with them, otherwise we are not trusting the game."

Muralidaran, who endured sleepless nights on his world-record hunt, insisted he was glad he had not smashed through the barrier in Warne's backyard earlier this season.

The Sri Lankan claimed it was even sweeter writing his name into the record books in his hometown of Kandy.

"It is a bigger moment than if I take it in Australia, I think this is the right timing," Muralidaran said.

"It's my home town and my parents are here, my wife is here and all my school friends are here."

Former wicket-taking record-holder Ian Botham said Muralidaran deserved his new title.

"For a man who has faced so much controversy since he first came on the scene, I think he has done exceptionally well to get where he has," he said.

"You can argue and debate about him until you're blue in the face, but at the end of the day he has been a wonderful Test player and an exceptional exponent of his art.

"Warne congratulated Muralidaran as soon as he had equalled his mark. "I wish him all the best for the future," Warne said.

"I think he can go on and take 1000 wickets. I don't think anybody else but Murali will take 1000 wickets."

ON the field, veteran opener Sanath Jayasuriya, who later announced the match would be his final Test, was out for 78 as the hosts reached 2-167 at stumps to lead by 74 with two days to play.

Jayasuriya, who hit 10 fours and a six, added 113 for the first wicket with fellow left-hander Michael Vandort, who scored 49 from 143 deliveries before being caught in the slips just before bad light stopped play.

Kumar Sangakkara finished unbeaten on 30, with skipper Mahela Jayawardene yet to get off the mark.

Tied with Warne overnight, Muralidaran was forced to wait until his second spell of the morning before moving off the 708-wicket mark, bowling Paul Collingwood (45) with a delivery from around the wicket that nipped straight on.

"I was surprised the off-spinner did not turn,'' Collingwood said. "It's obviously an amazing feat while it is not very nice being a victim. "

Collingwood shared a 57-run stand with Ryan Sidebottom (31) that helped England build a 93-run lead after resuming on 6-186.

"To get that kind of total we were very happy. You can lose wickets in clusters and hopefully we can put them under pressure,'' Collingwood said.

The landmark wicket was greeted with loud firecrackers all around Asgiriya International Stadium and wild celebrations from a full house that included hundreds of children from his old school, his family and closest friends.

"The England batsmen played well in the morning and it was getting a bit tougher for me as this pitch is getting slower and slower,'' Muralidaran said.

"The delivery to Collingwood was supposed to be an off break but it went straight on so I guess was lucky.''

The 35-year-old added to his tally in the next over with the wicket of Matthew Hoggard (15), who was brilliantly stumped down the leg-side by wicketkeeper Prasanna Jayawardene.

 

[SJS]

hmmm wild wild wild wild wild wild guess !!
Kaneria

Lets take it further.

Murali should play another 40 test matches. That will give him at least 200 wickets (the last 40 have yielded 280 with one innings still to go).

Thgis will take him to 910 + test wickets.

Kaneria has 256. So he will need another 654 to catch that up. At 5 wickets per test he will need 131 more test matches. Pakistan plays 9 tests per year at most. Thus he will need another 19 years to catch up even if he playes every single match that Pakistan plays.

He will be 46 by then

 

[The Sean]

Congratulations to a very humble, extraordinarily talented and genuinely likeable cricketer - a magnificent achievement.

You can never say never with regard to records being broken, but I'd fully expect Murali to finish with between 800-900 Test wickets even if he doesn't go on to the 1000. Considering the number of Tests needed to be played, and the rate of wicket taking needed to achieve that tally, it will require something extraordinary to take the record from him, particulary given the near-saturation levels we have with cricket these days. Just how many more Test matches can really be accommodated?

His will be one of those records that stands for a long, long time.

 

[Ikki]

Yes, but just because Murali is a nice man and this saga has gone on for years, does not mean that people should tire of arguing that his action is suspect, if that is what they think. I think there's a tendency, just because this thing has dragged on for years, to say: "Oh look, I'm sick of the debate, let's just get on with it". But I will never tire of arguing that the rules were changed to accomodate Murali and that, in match conditions, his action is very suspect. And I don't care where he comes from, or how nice of a person he is. I love the game (moreso than I love any team) and think that it should be played to its rules, and that those rules should not be altered to accomodate particular people. Put simply, people shouldn't just roll over and say: "Oh this has gone on forever, let's just shut up and move on".

I'm not sure how you could even argue that how he bowled in the lab was different to how he bowled in test match conditions. Did you see him bowl in the lab? I don't think you did.

I am not a fan of his action. I wonder how he got to Test cricket carrying it around. But the laws were changed - not to benefit him - because they were flawed for everybody.

I, for one, am not sick of this debate because of the regularity that it gets discussed, but because those who don't agree with it come with really poor arguments and often, as Top_Cat said, demean it into a shouting match. A lot of this stems from fans of Warne, which disturbs me. A lot of ill-feeling has gone to Warne from Murali fans because of Warne fans talking so much non-sense about Murali. They've indirectly reduced the legacy of their own favourite player.

I would actually really like a debate about it that was based on facts or logical theories, at least, that could give members here or anyone who read them a good idea of what's going on. I know I've evolved my thinking a lot since being here and reading more about the science of it. Maybe there can be a thread where it can be discussed properly and maybe a good article can be written about it?

 

[Majin]

"I couldn't care less about him," Egar said. "As far as I am concerned they should have a separate record for bowlers with illegal actions.

I quite agree. Murali, Warne, McGrath, Ambrose, Walsh, Hadlee, Dev, Botham, all the rest of those ****ing chuckers should be moved into a seperate record book so the way can be paved for Ramnaresh Sarwan to take his rightful place as leading wicket taker in Test cricket history.

In all seriousness, stoked for Murali, love the guy and am glad I've been around to watch him play.

 

[silentstriker]

This is so tiresome. This is a tribute thread, if you want to talk abou this action, please take it elsewhere.

 

[honestbharani]

Oi hbh, ain't it a bit late in Chennai at the mo? Never seen you online at this time of day.

working in afternoon shifts now.

 

[roseboy64]

Nah, I didn't, else I'd have said it outright. I'm pretty sure he'll get 692 (Warne's relevant figure being 691) before all that long, anyway (he's on 605 in between these innings).

The fact that I quoted np10 and italicised the "the usual" should tell you all you need to know.

He's got 709 Test wickets. Warne has 708 Test wickets. The stats say and also does pretty much 99.9% of the cricket world. Silly.

 

[honestbharani]

That picture is Murali just as he's bringing his bowling arm over in delivery with his arm ****ed at about 60 degrees.

Even if his arm - which he *ahem* can't straighten fully - were to straighten say half the distance in delivery, he'd still be double the allowable chucking limit.

I'm sure it's a question of viewing angles and I've measured it all wrong and am basically full of ****, but look what I did with the eyes. Aren't I clever.

That's all.

I m not sure abt him but u are juz too clever...


The fact that you can't recognize the diff. between 2D and 3D and you are still measuring angles and using them as proof says it all.......

 

[honestbharani]

Congrats Murali, well deserved. A thoroughly nice man to get such a record. Funny he got the record on his home ground and Warne got it on his.

Have to say I was severely dissapointed with the way The Age reported it. Did not like Greg Baum's article. Spent the whole thing discussing doubts over the action which has already been done ad nauseum and then finished off with the trite sentence 'it would be churlish not to congratulate him'.

As for the Hun, well that back page was an absolute disgrace.What you'd expect from that mob though

Don't think Chennai was his homeground, tbh...

 

[honestbharani]

Yes, but just because Murali is a nice man and this saga has gone on for years, does not mean that people should tire of arguing that his action is suspect, if that is what they think. I think there's a tendency, just because this thing has dragged on for years, to say: "Oh look, I'm sick of the debate, let's just get on with it". But I will never tire of arguing that the rules were changed to accomodate Murali and that, in match conditions, his action is very suspect. And I don't care where he comes from, or how nice of a person he is. I love the game (moreso than I love any team) and think that it should be played to its rules, and that those rules should not be altered to accomodate particular people. Put simply, people shouldn't just roll over and say: "Oh this has gone on forever, let's just shut up and move on".

When it has been SCIENTIFICALLY proved that he doesn't, and the people who are arguing to the contrary have nothing else to go by than "But it looks bad" or "The studies were doctored" or "The ICC always helps the Asians" or "Those tests were not real time (they were, for God's sakes)" , THEN it does become meaningless.


Plus, it is good sense and decency to NOT bring up bad stuff about players during THEIR moments. Not many mentioned Warne's personal problems or his bad record in India when he was retiring. Same with Lara and his captaincy and other stuff. Same with McGrath and his sledging.... This is MURALI's moment and is not a good time to bring this up. Maybe a couple of weeks later, but certainly not now.. What he has done is a phenomenal achievement, any which way you look at it and he deserves to be congratulated for it...


The ICC are the ones running the game and they have found out after extensive research that his action is just as fine as the others' and that is the end of that. I haven't seen too many significant changes in his action between then and now and neither have most others.

 

[Richard]

He's got 709 Test wickets. Warne has 708 Test wickets. The stats say and also does pretty much 99.9% of the cricket world. Silly.

The I$C$C-professed stats say that, yes. The stats against Test-class teams (those recognised by far, far, far more than 99.9% of the cricket World) say something else. This does not matter, however - as I've said, Murali is highly unlikely not to surpass Warne in these stakes. Nor is it really something that needs to be debated, as Murali is well entitled to celebrate whichever milestone he wishes.

 

[Richard]

The guy throws - whether once, twice or three times an over, whether the doosra, top spinner or arm ball or whatever ... HE THROWS.

He's a cheat, has boggley eyes, and is a runt.

That's all I have to say.
End of.

sign up especially for this?

No, it just happened to catch my eye.

Well, in the "Who was best - Warne or Muralitharan" debate, it will be very hard to convince Australians (and perhaps others) of the latter.
Taken out of his comfort zone, Muralitharan was found lacking and these stats make telling reading

Career stats
702 wickets @ 21.51
Versus Australia in Sri Lanka
47 wickets @ 26.02
Versus Australia in Australia
12 wickets @ 75.41

He played down here at three different points in his career, and played everywhere save at Adelaide.

He bowled a total of 262 overs and ended up with the staggeringly bad strike rate of 131 balls per wicket.

Does these stats forever allow Warne fans to win the Warne vs Muralitharan debate?
Will his record in Australia forever be a stain on his career?
His action aside, how would have Muralitheran fared had he been Australian, and been forced to play the bulk of his tests in Australia?

warne never had to bowl against the strongest batting lineup around, warne got burnt badly by the indians, especially in india. they both have teams that have got the better of them, big deal, both are champion bowlers and we have been blessed to witness them going head to head for such a long period.

Congrats to Murali. What a champ!

Fixed

Fixed.



Yeah I know, don't feed the troll, sorry, etc.

Inappropriate picture

Agree with Smith:

@ this page.

Especial LOL at Cameron - champ.

Though TBH I put forward a motion to have the posts about is-he-a-chucker, is-Warne-better? moved. Sick of this bull**** in tribute threads towards him.

 

[shortpitched713]

The I$C$C-professed stats say that, yes. The stats against Test-class teams (those recognised by far, far, far more than 99.9% of the cricket World) say something else. This does not matter, however - as I've said, Murali is highly unlikely not to surpass Warne in these stakes. Nor is it really something that needs to be debated, as Murali is well entitled to celebrate whichever milestone he wishes.