How good a bowler was Dennis Lillee?

[adharcric]

SJS,you've raised a good point but Lillee's stats in Pakistan count much more against him than those of Warne's in India because Pakistan has always been graveyard of fast bowlers[One of the reasons that I rate Imran Khan so highly that despite hardly playing any domesic cricket in Pakistan, he was the first ever genuine fast bowler who not only successful there but also trained people like Wasim & Waqar,who served Pakistan for about 2 decades & still good bowlers(for whom Imran,Wasim & Waqar are idols) are coming out of that country] whereas India has always been known as spinner's paradise e.g look at the records of Kumble,Chandershakhar & Bedi,they have Marshall type of records in India but have Devon Malcolm type of stats in the matches played from home.

India also (supposedly) produces the best players of spin? Does that count for anything?

 

[Richard]

Huh?

He was one of the leading fast bowlers and deserved to be picked

What shouldnt have happened is him crying on the pitch and refusing to bowl or kicking stumps over

Presumed you were referring to the 1987\88 tour of New Zealand, which he shouldn't have been on. FFS, would you not be rather annoyed at the Umpiring (generally considered to be worse even than that experienced in Pakistan) in that series? I don't really have a problem with players being angry at such terrible, and seemingly hugely biased, Umpiring, which affected the course of the series, frankly.

People in this thread have wrongly accused Lillee of refusing to tour Pakistan because of conditions BUT he never simply gave up because he felt the world was against him as old Mikey did on a couple of occasions - and you wonder why Bradman would pick Lillee over Holding

So what if he never gave-up? Holding actually ended-up doing far better on that '79\80 tour of NZ than Lillee did on his Pakistan one. Likewise, those are about the only two blights on either player's career.

 

[Richard]

???

Firstly, the guy was injured so it's a mute point anyway

Secondly, virtually no-one wanted to tour Pakistan in those days

People can accuse Lillee of being many things but being a quitter is not one of them - the guy played through injuries that had forced many others into premature retirement in those days

I don't really care about whether he was injured - the point is regarding if he had not been injured.

Lillee quit Test-cricket for WSC, so as Matt79 said, it's not completely silly to call him a quitter on that front.

 

[Richard]

I am amazed at how Lillee's single sub continental trip stats are held against everything else he did and everything else that screams that he was a truly great bowler while Warne's miserable record in India is never treated similarly in assessing his place amongst the game's greats.

Not as aften and by as many people at least.

No-one, for the umpteenth time, is saying that Lillee was not a great bowler - even, believe it or not, Shoaib\BhupinderSingh. Just that he was not the greatest seam-bowler of all-time, as there were those who did what he did and that little bit more.

Warne's poor record against India does count against him, of course it does. Nonetheless, the competition for the best wristspinner ever is hardly such a crowded race, is it?

 

[Matt79]

I don't really care about whether he was injured - the point is regarding if he had not been injured.

Lillee quit Test-cricket for WSC, so as Matt79 said, it's not completely silly to call him a quitter on that front.

Although, as I also said, he's reasons for moving to WSC from established cricket could be said to be diametrically opposed to those of someone quitting because something was too hard.

 

[silentstriker]

Still it seems people on here think he is only highly rated because of his demenour, despite what great players have said time and time again

Stop making stuff up. No one has said he shouldn't be highly rated. And if he never went to the subcontinent, my estimation of him would remain exactly where it is now.

 

[SJS]

SJS,you've raised a good point but Lillee's stats in Pakistan count much more against him than those of Warne's in India because Pakistan has always been graveyard of fast bowlers[One of the reasons that I rate Imran Khan so highly that despite hardly playing any domesic cricket in Pakistan, he was the first ever genuine fast bowler who not only successful there but also trained people like Wasim & Waqar,who served Pakistan for about 2 decades & still good bowlers(for whom Imran,Wasim & Waqar are idols) are coming out of that country] whereas India has always been known as spinner's paradise e.g look at the records of Kumble,Chandershakhar & Bedi,they have Marshall type of records in India but have Devon Malcolm type of stats in the matches played from home.

Hi Bhupinder,

If Paksitan is a fast bowlers grave yard and India a spinner's paradise then surely the conclusion would be that a fast bowler not doing so well in Pakistan is, kind of, understandable while a spinner not doing well in India is shocking.

You seem to state the facts about the conditions right but draw exactly the opposite conclusions.

Or am I missing something here.

 

[SJS]

India also (supposedly) produces the best players of spin? Does that count for anything?

I am not sure what is being said here.

Is it your point that a spinner should be judged only by how he performs against those who cant play spin very well ??

There have been spinners including leg spinners from Australia who have wreaked havoc in India.

Benaud in 8 test matches took 52 test wickets in India at 18.38 each !!
- 6.5 wickets per test.
As against 3.58 wkts per test in Australia at 30.7 each and 3.9 per test over all at 27.03

 

[SJS]

- Lance Gibbs, on tour to India. took 18 wkts at 22 each in 1966-67 and 21 wkts at 21.6 in 1974-75.

He also took 24 wkts at 20.4 when India visited Windies in 1961-62. Overall he took 63 wkts against India at 23.3 easily his best of all the opponents.

- Underwood took a total of 61 wkts against India at about 27.

- Titmus on his only tour to India (1963-64) took 27 wkts at 27.67 each. His best performance in a series out of the 15 series he played in.

- Illingworth, though he did not tour India, reallly fancied them as opponents his 31 wkts against them came at 19.1 each.

 

[SJS]

In more recent times, Saqlain Mushtaq on Pakistan's 1998-99 tour of India 1998-99 took 20 wickets in just two test matches at 20.1 each !!

No. Bowlers who have bowled well in India have reaped the rewards even if they have been spinners.

 

[Engle]

If Imran Khan, surely the first great fast bowler from the sub-cont who knows more about fast bowling than most, does not hold DKL's record in the sub-cont against him, then who are mere posters like us to do so ?

 

[neville cardus]

No, they do it to point out an obvious flaw in Lillee's career, much like they do with Warne in India and Muralitharan in Australia. They are just showing that he failed to perform in a particular area (in this case the subcontinent).

Is it not significant that the only men who had any real success in those Pakistani Test Matches were slow bowlers?

 

[neville cardus]

Can someone post up the averages of the other fast bowlers for the series in Pakistan in which Fot played please

I'm far too lazy to do that, but I know for a fact that the only Australian who did anything worthwhile in that series was Ray Bright. No fast bowler, from either side, managed much (Imran's two for very little in the last Test aside).

 

[neville cardus]

The obvious stuff, like having all the tools, and having the attitude\aura\aggressiveness\etc. to go with it.

Lillee hardly lacked any of those.

 

[neville cardus]

Imran was extremely confident, probably to the point of being arrogant. But I don't think he ever boasted about his own abilities or talent. He also gave credit where it was due. For example, he was always full of praise for Miandad the player, even though we all know there was no love lost between the two (and to his credit, Miandad returned the praise towards Imran). I really value Imran's judgement on cricket. His opinion is one of the reasons I rate Lillee highly.

He gives a reasonably balanced overview of himself in All Round View (where, interestingly, he seems to rate D.K. Lillee the greatest of his contemporary speedsters).

 

[adharcric]

Is it your point that a spinner should be judged only by how he performs against those who cant play spin very well ??

I am not making a point but mentioning an argument (valid or not?) that I have heard very often. Oh yeah, nobody ever said that Warne should be judged only by his performance in India (or Lillee only by his performance in Pakistan).

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Hi Bhupinder,

If Paksitan is a fast bowlers grave yard and India a spinner's paradise then surely the conclusion would be that a fast bowler not doing so well in Pakistan is, kind of, understandable while a spinner not doing well in India is shocking.

You seem to state the facts about the conditions right but draw exactly the opposite conclusions.

Or am I missing something here.

I've never said that Lillee wasn't a great bowler.All I say is that he wasn't a better bowler than Marshall,Hadlee,Imran,Garner,McGrath,Ambrose,Wasim,Waqar etc who were successful in graveyard of fast bowlers while Lillee wasn't.Lillee waould easily make my top 10 genuine fast bowlers of alltime & in top 20 when considering every type of bowling.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

If Imran Khan, surely the first great fast bowler from the sub-cont who knows more about fast bowling than most, does not hold DKL's record in the sub-cont against him, then who are mere posters like us to do so ?

Ever heard Tendulkar,Lara or Ponting claiming to be better than each other?

 

[archie mac]

Stop making stuff up. No one has said he shouldn't be highly rated. And if he never went to the subcontinent, my estimation of him would remain exactly where it is now.

I said in that post because of his demenour Please respond to the post made, I think the results of the poll would suggest that he is highly rated.

And it has been suggested a number of times on this forum that people rated him so highly because of his demenour

 

[archie mac]

Personally disagree with Lillee's subcontinental failure being a significant argument against his pedigree as a fast bowler, but please stop exaggerating. Nobody (BS, perhaps ?) said that Lillee is not great and legendary simply because of the poor series in Pakistan. Nobody (with the same exception) chose to "condemn" Lillee for that reason either.

Again I did not say everyone on here, just some people, and it is more than one, if I could be bothered I would find some posts to back me up, but I can't (be bothered that is)