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Muralitharan a burglar,a thief and a dacoit : Bedi

Dasa

International Vice-Captain
More than 'unfair' was in regards to the Athletic comparison. Just because something seems 'unfair' does not equate it with what I say about Murali.
Here's what you said:
"But Murali's advantage works to disadvantage his opposition. Hence, it goes a step further than just being 'unfair'."
That doesn't seem like you were talking about the athletics comparison at all. What is a step further than just being 'unfair' then?
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Here's what you said:
"But Murali's advantage works to disadvantage his opposition. Hence, it goes a step further than just being 'unfair'."
That doesn't seem like you were talking about the athletics comparison at all. What is a step further than just being 'unfair' then?

Yes, but IT is not Murali's deformity, I am talking about IT 'the Athletic example'. Where Manan was showing that there would also be unfairness if one guy had 100% twitch fibres to which I agreed, but I said that the athletic comparison is NOT equal because just because someone can run faster it doesn't make YOU run slower. Whilst Murali's advantage brings a clear disadvantage on the performance of others. E.g. his wrists are so rubbery he can bowl out the back of his hand and no one can pick him.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Newsflash, the position of Murali's wrist has absolutely nothing to do with how straight his arm is deemed. You seem to be confused as to what you're actually arguing. Anyway, you're again choosing to ignore the example I gave because it doesn't fit your view. I know, you'll give me the same old crap about normalcy, acquired talent etc etc - frankly, it counts for **** all because ultimately you're just choosing to exclude one thing and not the other with no actual evidence. I mean, double-jointedness is not uncommon. I myself have a double-jointed thumb. So it's not really so abnormal after all, probably around the same 'variance' as Warne's natural wrist strength.
Here is what I was referring to with that statement, I'll quote Pratyush because he says it better than I would I think:

Pratyush said:
He does get an unfair advantage to be able to bowl like other people would not. If some one can prove 100% that he bowls totally legally, within the laws, a way other people with normal hands can be allowed to bowl too, maybe I wont have a problem. The way Murali rolls his arm before bowling, I dount it would be allowed if some one else tried to bowl that way. Getting the ball to come from behing your hand would simply mean chucking for some one else. Just because he has a uniqueness in his hand which is apparently straight as proved by some gruop of scientists 2-3 years, ago I am not convinced his hand is straight while bowling.
And no, being double-jointed is a tad different than having strong wrists.
 

JBH001

International Regular
I do think it's unfair, but that is as mother-nature wanted it. It's within the rules and I really don't have a problem with it. But, it seems more people are concerned with covering it up or making up for that fact than just saying: "yeah, he has it".
Actually, quite a few people know of Murali's wrist and have said so many times on other threads, especially those concerning his doosra (or even his big spinning offie).

What the debate is about, is what conclusions we draw from this?

With all due respect, and your beliefs to the contrary, your posts on this issue have sashayed from point to point with no real attempt at consistency - the fact that so many people do not 'get' what you are saying may be an indication not that we dont understand, but that you are not being clear in what you are saying.

More to the point, let me clarify what you said.

So, you believe that Murali derives an unfair advantage due to his wrist.

How, exactly, is it unfair?

Further, is it unfair in spirit, but fair in terms of the rules?

To whom is it unfair? To other bowlers? To other batsmen? Both?

Finally, do you think it lessens his considerable achievements?
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Actually, quite a few people know of Murali's wrist and have said so many times on other threads, especially those concerning his doosra (or even his big spinning offie).

What the debate is about, is what conclusions we draw from this?

With all due respect, and your beliefs to the contrary, your posts on this issue have sashayed from point to point with no real attempt at consistency - the fact that so many people do not 'get' what you are saying may be an indication not that we dont understand, but that you are not being clear in what you are saying.
Maybe you're right and I have stated it poorly, whilst thinking some aren't getting what I am saying. Although, I may have reached this conclusion earlier without having being called a 'petty man' or whose integrity was questioned because of admiration for another player.

More to the point, let me clarify what you said.

So, you believe that Murali derives an unfair advantage due to his wrist.

How, exactly, is it unfair?

Further, is it unfair in spirit, but fair in terms of the rules?

To whom is it unfair? To other bowlers? To other batsmen? Both?

Finally, do you think it lessens his considerable achievements?
I do think it's unfair. I have just stated it in the above posts a few examples.

It's unfair in nature, others don't have it, not even to a degree. But it's fair in terms of the rules I guess, yes.

It is unfair to both. Bowlers who can't replicate it without being outside the rules and batsmen who have to face something rather unique that they can't really be simulated to be prepared against.

No, I don't think it lessens his achievements. But to state the fact that his wrists have helped him shouldn't be such a talking point either.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Crazy argument

People's view on Murali is not coloured by whether he is double-jointed, has an elbow that he cannot straighten, etc etc etc zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

It's whether they think, despite any of the above, he chucks or not
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Crazy argument

People's view on Murali is not coloured by whether he is double-jointed, has an elbow that he cannot straighten, etc etc etc zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

It's whether they think, despite any of the above, he chucks or not
But as we all know, he doesn't chuck, and his elbow doesn't influence anything other than making it look like he does.

It's the wrist that makes him special, capable of doing what no other can.

And I repeat: I find it very odd that anyone objects in any way to that.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Oh yeah...
care to explain what rules they are?
lol..... left hand batsmen, when cricket first started out, were so rare that it was a HUGE advantage for them, for bowlers were simply not used to bowling to those players... So maybe we should have banned left handers back then and there.... So what if we would have lost Lara, Sobers, Border etc.... :p
u are actually saying that the ONLY reason he is bowling so well is because of his deformity?


I reckon he has had this deformity since he was born and yet he was very mediocre in his early years, at which time you would obviously think that it didn't DISADVANTAGE his opponents as much as it does now, WHEN HE HAS GOTTEN BETTER. So let us ban him now for his offences are twofold:


a. He has a deformity which somehow helps him when bowling....

b. He has been good enough to improve his game because even with the deformity, he was a mediocre bowler but now he has found a way to be better than the rest, so let's just ban him....



You do realize that Murali is what he is because he DEVELOPED as a bowler and not all of it is because of this deformity which he has had since he was born. He is a genius bowler and one of the best of all time who bowls within the rules and that is the end of that. You are actually claiming that we should ban him because batsmen aren't good enough to play him...... We should ban Ponting too because he is having almost the same sort of success that Murali does and he has incredibly good hand-eye co-ordination which is an advantage to him, and a disadvantage to his opponents.... Let's ban all the greats and watch mediocrity rule the roost...... 8-)
nope, Warne had unusually strong wrists, something evident when he bats.... You CANNOT develop that. Y not ban him? AFter all, that is the reason for his super efficient flippers and bouncers.....



So where does THIS end?
cheating? Since when has playing within the rules become cheating?



And indeed, let's have Sarwan bowl all overs in international cricket from now...... 8-)
so do Bond, Cairns, VEttori and all...... All these cheaters play for NZ though. Wud luv to hear ur opinion on them....:laugh:
Again and again u keep saying as though that Murali is what he is BECAUSE of his deformity. Why didn't he set the world on fire when he started, then, a la Warney?


Chandra became as good a bowler as he could with a similar deformity like Murali. It is just Murali is a champion bowler and one of the best of all time, not all because of just a deformity. You are just thrashing a gr8 bowlers' gr8 achievements just like that here, mate and I honestly expected better from you. It is one thing to say that the deformity helps him but the way you've been posting in this thread suggests that u think the only reason he is taking wickets is because of it.....
so, ban Munaf now?
nope, after corrective action his doosra came down to less than 5 degrees or so of flex, IIRR..... McGrath, Gillespie and Pollock had more flex than that. Again, the fact got buttered up in Aussie media, I guess, where they must have been paying more attention to the fact that his doosra was 14 degrees before corrective action....


And as I have had occassion to point out in other threads on this issue, if u think 15 was kept because of Murali, I can easily argue that if they had kept 13, it was for McGrath and Gillespie and I can just replace Murali with McGrath in ur own goalpost sentence and still make a very valid point. Hope u get it now......
really? Did u ever even care to follow what truly happened in those studies or were u just too happy to just only read selectively whatever supported ur PoV?
they did real time tests as well, but I seem to remember that the margin of error was 2 degrees or 3 and so we can't say accurately using those, but the general finding was that all those bowlers chucked and quite a few more than Murali with his stock ball..... And even his doosra, after corrective action....
if he had such strong elbows, shouldn't he be banned? :ph34r: :laugh:
bent arm is not illegal and neither was it illegal under the old rules.....
It was proved that Hair acted like an idiot and was riding too much of a high horse to be an international umpire. To be specific, he lacked something which must be the first thing an international official should possess: common sense and he was banned because of that. Quite funny how firing an incompetent employee generates so much argument simply because the body is ICC and the employee is Darrell Hair......
wonder why all the batters from austrlia, england, RSA etc couldn't do that then, as it would have helped them play spin better than they have been doing... ;)





Not as simple as A telling B that by doing C, u can gain D. It is obvious that strong wrists are something u are simply born with. You can enhance ur wrist strength with work in gym and squashing squash balls but you can't gain what a guy naturally has already....
That's seriously, seriously impressive, BTW, hbh. :p:thumbup1: But for Sean's interference (:@) that'd be 15 in a row, almost threatening LA-ICE E's record.
 

pup11

International Coach
Doosra is one delivery that just can't be bowled with a legitimate action and when Murali bowls the doosra with his unorthodox action it looks even more doubtful and thats the main cause of all his chucking related problems. But Murali is in a fiery mood nowadays first he sued Bedi and now he has warned the Aussie fans that if they taunt him it would only make him stronger.
 

pup11

International Coach
I don't think ICC can do much to tackle chucking bowlers, because a bowler can always intentionally bowl with more than 15 degree extension on-field and once he is reported he can bowl with a legitimate action during the bio-mechanic tests. Once a bowler clears the bio-mechanic test even the umpire hesitates to report his action to the match-referee.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Doosra is one delivery that just can't be bowled with a legitimate action and when Murali bowls the doosra with his unorthodox action it looks even more doubtful and thats the main cause of all his chucking related problems. But Murali is in a fiery mood nowadays first he sued Bedi and now he has warned the Aussie fans that if they taunt him it would only make him stronger.
Why not? And is this the Saqlain\Harbhajan Doosra or the Murali one?
 

Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
It, the doosra, does in general seem to exascerbate any problems with an action. That is, of course, not to say that everyone who bowls it is chucking, or even that those who have chucked it chuck it every time. But it does seem to put people closer to infringing the rules - much like I suppose a quick going for that extra bit of pace...
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Thing is, I just have never understood why. It's a movement of the wrist, I can't see why it should enforce a movement upon the elbow.

Think Jack did say something about it sometime, which seemed to sort of clarify and confuse the issue at the same time... wonder if he's had any developments since?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
...and so it continues.

Allowing for the fact that I cannot vouch for the integrity of either person involved in the interview concerned (Bedi or Coward), I would be utterly amazed if a lawsuit wasn't brought against Bishen Bedi for defamation of character - if, that is, a certain amount of the interview hasn't been embellished by the journalist concerned or misquoted 'twixt lip and paper.

I await further developments with interest.

In answer to those who think that I am supporting Murali regarding his action - I'm not (much) - but I would think long and hard before I described anyone as "a burglar, a thief, a dacoit" (member of an armed gang?) without talking to my lawyers first.
Haha, just noticed this... :laugh: Good call, TBH, le. :thumbsup:
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
http://blogs.cricinfo.com/robslobs/archives/2007/08/muralitharan_v_bedi.php#comments

August 15, 2007

Posted by Rob Steen 20 hours, 10 minutes ago

Muralitharan v Bedi

So it’s come, finally, to this. Muttiah Muralitharan, the first truly plausible challenger to SF Barnes as the bowler likeliest to win a Test singlehanded, has hired some extremely learned friends to file a defamation case against his most voluble and repetitious critic, Bishan Bedi. A sad week for cricket perhaps, even, arguably, for free speech, but a damned good one for those who maintain that this is one argument that has gone on for far too long.

After a decade of stoicism and cheek-turning, Murali has certainly decided he has had more than enough. The facts seem plain enough. In what was merely his latest tirade, Bedi had not only alleged that he was consciously taking advantage of that deformed right elbow and likened his action to that of a shot-putter (it’s a wonder he didn’t accuse him of taking steroids); he also insisted that the ICC had created a “monster” by allowing the Sri Lankan to continue bowling. The Sri Lankan Cricket Board stood by their man, charging that Bedi’s remarks were intended to "harm the bowler's reputation and achievements".

According to the Daily Mirror in Colombo, Murali’s manager, Kushil Gunasekara, had a series of meetings last Sunday with Sudath Perera from legal eagles Sudath Perera Associates. "We are writing a letter to Bedi,” confirmed Perera, “and if needed, he will be dragged into a court of law." Colombo's leading lawyer Romesh De Silva, the President's Counsel, is also in Murali’s corner. Although Murali is receiving support from his board, Perera and company, who have also represented former Test captain Arjuna Ranatunga, will file an independent case against Bedi without having to bother those busy little bodies at the BCCI.

If there’s one priceless advantage an ex-player has over active ones it is that their tongue is not gagged and bound by fussy and over-sensitive administrators. They can fire both barrels with something approaching impunity. There is, however, the law of the land to contend with.

Most retirees, as members of a largely convivial transcontinental brotherhood who usually like nothing better than staying nice and friendly so they can land a plum post in punditry, choose not to step over the line distancing fair comment from needless and pointless abuse. Bedi, sadly, has long been one of those rare exceptions. I wonder why. Is it really that his sense of justice and fair play has been so grievously offended (in which case, surely he had already made his views on the subject abundantly clear a dozen times over)? Or might it just be that, like so many ex-players who see their records smithereened, being a good loser is no more a part of his repertoire now than it was three decades ago?

There is a precedent for Murali, albeit not a terribly encouraging one. In 1996, Ian Botham and Allan Lamb sued Imran Khan for libel after he accused them in print of ball-tampering and being "racist, ill-educated and lacking in class": they were not successful. The jury accepted by a majority of 10-2 Imran's claims that he had been misquoted and was only trying to defend himself after admitting that he had once tampered with a ball in a county match. Branded a "complete exercise in futility" by the judge, the trial left Botham facing an estimated legal bill of £260,000 and Lamb one for £140,000.

The difference between the two cases appears to be twofold: Imran did not accuse Botham or Lamb by name; he was also contrite. George Carman QC, his heavyweight counsel, informed the jury that his client had offered an apology to Botham and Lamb, insisting that he had been misquoted, and that he had been willing to send a letter to The Times for publication, to make that apology public. “Sorry”, however, seems to be Bedi’s saddest word. Mind you, to be fair, given that his darts have been aimed with such unerring accuracy and consistency, nobody would believe him if he did express any regrets.

Now it may just be that Murali’s extremely learned friends are taking him for a ride. To my almost certain knowledge, the concept of “no win, no fee” does not yet exist in Sri Lanka. Yet at the risk of sounding hopelessly naïve, I seriously doubt they are extracting the Michael quite so blatantly as that. Murali is an icon, a national treasure, a symbol of possibility in that beautiful but benighted island, its greatest gift to the planet since the tea plantations opened for business. Given the Botham-Lamb result, why even consider recommending such a costly plunge unless the President’s Counsel sincerely believed there was a decent chance of success?

Of course nobody wants to see such a case come to court, especially those of us who recall Bedi’s maverick spirit and unmatchably gorgeous action with huge affection and heartfelt gratitude. On the other hand, if you are also of the opinion that it may be the only way to silence those bitter snipers, bring on the wigs.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
http://blogs.cricinfo.com/robslobs/archives/2007/08/muralitharan_v_bedi.php#comments

August 15, 2007

Posted by Rob Steen 20 hours, 10 minutes ago

Muralitharan v Bedi

So it’s come, finally, to this. Muttiah Muralitharan, the first truly plausible challenger to SF Barnes as the bowler likeliest to win a Test singlehanded, has hired some extremely learned friends to file a defamation case against his most voluble and repetitious critic, Bishan Bedi. A sad week for cricket perhaps, even, arguably, for free speech, but a damned good one for those who maintain that this is one argument that has gone on for far too long.

After a decade of stoicism and cheek-turning, Murali has certainly decided he has had more than enough. The facts seem plain enough. In what was merely his latest tirade, Bedi had not only alleged that he was consciously taking advantage of that deformed right elbow and likened his action to that of a shot-putter (it’s a wonder he didn’t accuse him of taking steroids); he also insisted that the ICC had created a “monster” by allowing the Sri Lankan to continue bowling. The Sri Lankan Cricket Board stood by their man, charging that Bedi’s remarks were intended to "harm the bowler's reputation and achievements".

According to the Daily Mirror in Colombo, Murali’s manager, Kushil Gunasekara, had a series of meetings last Sunday with Sudath Perera from legal eagles Sudath Perera Associates. "We are writing a letter to Bedi,” confirmed Perera, “and if needed, he will be dragged into a court of law." Colombo's leading lawyer Romesh De Silva, the President's Counsel, is also in Murali’s corner. Although Murali is receiving support from his board, Perera and company, who have also represented former Test captain Arjuna Ranatunga, will file an independent case against Bedi without having to bother those busy little bodies at the BCCI.

If there’s one priceless advantage an ex-player has over active ones it is that their tongue is not gagged and bound by fussy and over-sensitive administrators. They can fire both barrels with something approaching impunity. There is, however, the law of the land to contend with.

Most retirees, as members of a largely convivial transcontinental brotherhood who usually like nothing better than staying nice and friendly so they can land a plum post in punditry, choose not to step over the line distancing fair comment from needless and pointless abuse. Bedi, sadly, has long been one of those rare exceptions. I wonder why. Is it really that his sense of justice and fair play has been so grievously offended (in which case, surely he had already made his views on the subject abundantly clear a dozen times over)? Or might it just be that, like so many ex-players who see their records smithereened, being a good loser is no more a part of his repertoire now than it was three decades ago?

There is a precedent for Murali, albeit not a terribly encouraging one. In 1996, Ian Botham and Allan Lamb sued Imran Khan for libel after he accused them in print of ball-tampering and being "racist, ill-educated and lacking in class": they were not successful. The jury accepted by a majority of 10-2 Imran's claims that he had been misquoted and was only trying to defend himself after admitting that he had once tampered with a ball in a county match. Branded a "complete exercise in futility" by the judge, the trial left Botham facing an estimated legal bill of £260,000 and Lamb one for £140,000.

The difference between the two cases appears to be twofold: Imran did not accuse Botham or Lamb by name; he was also contrite. George Carman QC, his heavyweight counsel, informed the jury that his client had offered an apology to Botham and Lamb, insisting that he had been misquoted, and that he had been willing to send a letter to The Times for publication, to make that apology public. “Sorry”, however, seems to be Bedi’s saddest word. Mind you, to be fair, given that his darts have been aimed with such unerring accuracy and consistency, nobody would believe him if he did express any regrets.

Now it may just be that Murali’s extremely learned friends are taking him for a ride. To my almost certain knowledge, the concept of “no win, no fee” does not yet exist in Sri Lanka. Yet at the risk of sounding hopelessly naïve, I seriously doubt they are extracting the Michael quite so blatantly as that. Murali is an icon, a national treasure, a symbol of possibility in that beautiful but benighted island, its greatest gift to the planet since the tea plantations opened for business. Given the Botham-Lamb result, why even consider recommending such a costly plunge unless the President’s Counsel sincerely believed there was a decent chance of success?

Of course nobody wants to see such a case come to court, especially those of us who recall Bedi’s maverick spirit and unmatchably gorgeous action with huge affection and heartfelt gratitude. On the other hand, if you are also of the opinion that it may be the only way to silence those bitter snipers, bring on the wigs.
Very good piece. Agree with everything he says.
 

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