Muralitharan a burglar,a thief and a dacoit : Bedi

[archie mac]

Uhh what, how does Pakistan's dire behavior excuse Hair's dire behavior? Both sides were pathetic.

He belived they were ball tampering, he followed the steps as set out ( and there were two umpires out there) by the ICC. He was most likely wrong, okay so at the end of the game he admits he is wrong, and Pakistan are proven correct.

But that is not what happened they refused to play a Test match, over reaction? I think so

 

[honestbharani]

He belived they were ball tampering, he followed the steps as set out ( and there were two umpires out there) by the ICC. He was most likely wrong, okay so at the end of the game he admits he is wrong, and Pakistan are proven correct.

But that is not what happened they refused to play a Test match, over reaction? I think so

s, they did over react and that is where common sense comes into this. Any one who could have retained his calm in that scenario would have offered another chance for Pakistan to continue with the game, because at the end of the day, it is the spectators who matter and you cannot short charge them like that. Then, at the end of the game, he could have reported Inzy and the pak team for refusing to carry on with the game and they would have got their desserts. But it is this lack of common sense and behaving like he is some hero and being bullish in his opinions and refusing to change inspite of evidence to the contrary and basically making calls simply based on his preformed opinion that he is out of the international panel, at the moment and I am glad it has come to this because IMO, the game is undoubtedly better off without the likes of him.

 

[honestbharani]

wonder why all the batters from austrlia, england, RSA etc couldn't do that then, as it would have helped them play spin better than they have been doing...





Not as simple as A telling B that by doing C, u can gain D. It is obvious that strong wrists are something u are simply born with. You can enhance ur wrist strength with work in gym and squashing squash balls but you can't gain what a guy naturally has already....

Agreed, but you can improve stronger wrists, and you said you can't, small point

read my post again. I did say "you can enhance ur wrist strength through those exercises"

 

[archie mac]

s, they did over react and that is where common sense comes into this. Any one who could have retained his calm in that scenario would have offered another chance for Pakistan to continue with the game, because at the end of the day, it is the spectators who matter and you cannot short charge them like that. Then, at the end of the game, he could have reported Inzy and the pak team for refusing to carry on with the game and they would have got their desserts. But it is this lack of common sense and behaving like he is some hero and being bullish in his opinions and refusing to change inspite of evidence to the contrary and basically making calls simply based on his preformed opinion that he is out of the international panel, at the moment and I am glad it has come to this because IMO, the game is undoubtedly better off without the likes of him.

I think once the Umpires(two out there remember) have called off the Test, they can not change their minds. They waited for the Pakistan team to come out they did not.

"we were just protesting and then we were going to continue", not good enough for mine

We did not see much of Hair in Aust. after the ICC changed the rules, so I will not comment on whether he should have gone on or not

 

[archie mac]

nope, Warne had unusually strong wrists, something evident when he bats.... You CANNOT develop that. Y not ban him? AFter all, that is the reason for his super efficient flippers and bouncers.....

This was the post I answered mate

 

[Ikki]

Hmm, I thought you were implying that McGrath has no unique (abnormal) inherent ability.

FFS, abnormal ABILITY is different to abnormal DEFORMITY. There is quite a huge difference here. You acquire an ability through your own hard work, you don't with a deformity.

 

[honestbharani]

This was the post I answered mate

yeah, you can strengthen ur wrists but u can never really match it with someone who is born with naturally strong wrists and also strengthens it through those same methods. That was my point.

 

[archie mac]

yeah, you can strengthen ur wrists but u can never really match it with someone who is born with naturally strong wrists and also strengthens it through those same methods. That was my point.

Okay, well then I agree with you

 

[Ikki]

But people DO have what Murali has, perhaps not cricketers that we know of, but people do...and when did the double-jointed wrist come into this? Warne has unusually supple wrists - he has an 'abnormality' and an 'unfair advantage' by your standards....oh yeah, don't try to argue that Murali is even more of a minority, I bet there's not a person around who could do what Warne does with his wrists, so he has just as much of an 'unfair advantage' as Murali. You're already dealing with a tiny minority of people, and you ARE setting an arbitrary mark to single Murali out. Every cricketer is already 'abnormal' because what they do cannot be done by the vast majority of people.

For the love of...

Yes, they are abnormal in their TALENT, not in their BODY that would mean they are abnormal because they are DEFORMED. Supple wrists and big hands aren't abnormal, a lot of players have either one or both. Double-jointed wrists ARE though. BIG difference here.

This is why I say you keep missing it. You keep mentioning others have ABNORMAL talents, but that isn't the point at all. I am talking about the deformity here.

What you're doing is akin to comparing McGrath's 'abnormal' consistency to someone else that has 3 arms.

As for the rest of your post, you only see 'stout fans' of Murali because you're so anti-Murali that you just have to counter any bit of praise he gets. It's a bit rich that you accuse us of bias, as far as I'm concerned you're one of the most biased members on this forum. You haven't said outright that Murali should be banned, but you've spent many posts on 'proving' to us that he has an 'unfair advantage' - what's the motivation for that? I find it hard to believe that you'd be pursuing this angle so rigorously just to stimulate debate, so what is it?

No, because I never put down Murali ONCE this thread and you keep portraying it as an attack on Murali? Why? I don't know and the only rational reason I can muster is that you're too much of a fan to see the issue properly.

You are by omission, saying that Murali gets no help from his double-jointed wrists. Which is absolutely preposterous. To admit that is not to say that ALL his talent and ALL his success comes from that, but to a degree - and I'll leave that to whatever you wish it to be - he DOES get that and such a thing is NOT equal to someone else's ACQUIRED ability.

 

[Ikki]

Sums up your motivation behind the Murali-bashing pretty well. Oh yeah, I am not a Murali fan at all (although I do support him after seeing all the crap he gets).

Have to agree with every word in Dasa's previous post as well.

Quite clearly it doesn't. You have Dasa here trying to prove the inequality of not letting in someone who is clearly deficient in an arena and equating that with the inequality of not having someone who is supremely efficient in the arena.

Two completely different things and every time Dasa has replied he has always argued something he thought I was saying as opposed to something I said.

I didn't say Murali should be banned, Dasa thought I've been saying it. I didn't say Murali is equal to one of these freaks we've talked about, Dasa thought I was saying it. I didn't even mention Warne until some here mentioned that it was because I have bias.

I mean it seems no one here can just admit a matter of fact point here that his double-wrists, for e.g., help him out? Everyone gets totally defensive and tries to avoid the issue and unfortunately, have digressed the issue with examples that aren't even apt. That says more than enough there, by itself.

 

[Ikki]

With this you lost all your credibility you were trying to build up here. I have read your views on Murali in the past but I was giving you another chance and hoping that you were indeed arguing in all sincereity. But you proved me wrong and I agree with every word Dasa said about you.

You scoffed at others for attacking you, but you did the same when you couldn't counter their view and also almost showed your true colors about why you feel so about Murali.

And how so? You quote me out of context. I was being questioned for my admiration of Warne, as if that is why I am saying anything here - nothing which is even remotely negative, just a matter of fact. So, I joked with that comment. But nothing what I had said was affected at all. I was saying that I know of all the issues surrounding these two men and I see Warne superior. Move on, what I am saying here has no relevance. But for others to keep trying to pin that on me shows too much bias on their part and not mine.

It's like someone here saying Warne had too many personal issues, and instead of me accepting that for a fact that of which it is...I keep looking for examples all through cricketers and sports to somehow take the negativity out of the accusation. Why would I do that if I weren't overly sensitive about Warne?

But I wouldn't do that, I'd accept it for the fact it is. The man made trouble for himself.

Then we have this Murali issue, and yet not 1 person has said, "yeah, I am sure it is a trait that helps him, but he is still a great cricketer despite". I think I'm the closest person to have even come said this and I'm 'a Warne fan' .

 

[Ikki]

u are actually saying that the ONLY reason he is bowling so well is because of his deformity?


I reckon he has had this deformity since he was born and yet he was very mediocre in his early years, at which time you would obviously think that it didn't DISADVANTAGE his opponents as much as it does now, WHEN HE HAS GOTTEN BETTER. So let us ban him now for his offences are twofold:


a. He has a deformity which somehow helps him when bowling....

b. He has been good enough to improve his game because even with the deformity, he was a mediocre bowler but now he has found a way to be better than the rest, so let's just ban him....



You do realize that Murali is what he is because he DEVELOPED as a bowler and not all of it is because of this deformity which he has had since he was born. He is a genius bowler and one of the best of all time who bowls within the rules and that is the end of that. You are actually claiming that we should ban him because batsmen aren't good enough to play him...... We should ban Ponting too because he is having almost the same sort of success that Murali does and he has incredibly good hand-eye co-ordination which is an advantage to him, and a disadvantage to his opponents.... Let's ban all the greats and watch mediocrity rule the roost......

Um, reply to the bolded part: No, that is not what I am saying and I don't know why I KEEP having to say this. Maybe it has to do with people replying to me AS IF I've said it, in which they keep missing the mark...again and again.

 

[Dasa]

For the love of...

Yes, they are abnormal in their TALENT, not in their BODY that would mean they are abnormal because they are DEFORMED. Supple wrists and big hands aren't abnormal, a lot of players have either one or both. Double-jointed wrists ARE though. BIG difference here.

How is a double-jointed wrist any different from an abnormally (and naturally) strong wrist - neither has anything to do with talent. I'd wager that the flexibility and strength of Warne's wrist is so great that it is abnormal. So, is Warne getting an abnormal and unfair advantage or not?

No, because I never put down Murali ONCE this thread and you keep portraying it as an attack on Murali? Why? I don't know and the only rational reason I can muster is that you're too much of a fan to see the issue properly.

You'll say everything you can against Murali except actually going out and saying Murali doesn't deserve his wickets. I mean, you've devoted half a thread to proving to us that he gets an 'unfair advantage' - if that's not an attack on Murali, what is? You've made the thread an attack on Murali by omitting analysis of any other cricketer and writing it off as not fitting your definition.

You are by omission, saying that Murali gets no help from his double-jointed wrists. Which is absolutely preposterous. To admit that is not to say that ALL his talent and ALL his success comes from that, but to a degree - and I'll leave that to whatever you wish it to be - he DOES get that and such a thing is NOT equal to someone else's ACQUIRED ability.

No I am bloody well not. I have never said he doesn't get any help from his double-jointed wrists. However, I am saying that any help he may get from his double-jointed wrist doesn't constitute an 'unfair advantage'.

I mean it seems no one here can just admit a matter of fact point here that his double-wrists, for e.g., help him out? Everyone gets totally defensive and tries to avoid the issue and unfortunately, have digressed the issue with examples that aren't even apt. That says more than enough there, by itself.

Ffs don't portray yourself as some sort of noble force sent to cricketweb to set us straight - you're quite the opposite. You're not pointing out anything different by saying the double-jointed wrists help Murali. However, it's not just admitting a matter of fact point that his double jointed wrists help him out. It's that you're portraying something a certain way while ignoring any of our attempts to equate this advantage to other players because you don't like it that way. It's also that you're portraying it as an 'unfair advantage' - effectively, you're saying he's a cheat.

 

[Dasa]

Then we have this Murali issue, and yet not 1 person has said, "yeah, I am sure it is a trait that helps him, but he is still a great cricketer despite". I think I'm the closest person to have even come said this and I'm 'a Warne fan' .

You've been maintaining that Murali has an unfair advantage (actually, apparently it's more than unfair). Simply put, that is an accusation of cheating.

And be honest, if all you wanted to say is that his double-jointed wrist may help him, you wouldn't spend pages and pages arguing.

 

[Ikki]

Again and again u keep saying as though that Murali is what he is BECAUSE of his deformity. Why didn't he set the world on fire when he started, then, a la Warney?


Chandra became as good a bowler as he could with a similar deformity like Murali. It is just Murali is a champion bowler and one of the best of all time, not all because of just a deformity. You are just thrashing a gr8 bowlers' gr8 achievements just like that here, mate and I honestly expected better from you. It is one thing to say that the deformity helps him but the way you've been posting in this thread suggests that u think the only reason he is taking wickets is because of it.....

I don't know where I am being quoted in saying these things, do any of you guys actually read what I've written? I'll quote myself:

That is my argument: that he is very efficient and it does have a lot to do with his deformity. Let me say, I am not saying let's ban him because of it - big discussion, I don't want to get into it - but to reply and equate his deformity with the hard worked talent of someone else is ridiculous. Yeah, give him credit, the deformity alone won't make him a great bowler but to ignore how much it enhances his bowling is what I can't believe.

His deformity does not equate the consistency/accuracy of a McGrath, for example.

You can even disagree how much it benefits him, I won't argue such a subjective point a view but to disagree that he actually benefits is ridiculous. And again, it does not equate something attained/trained by another player.

 

[JBH001]

Ffs don't portray yourself as some sort of noble force sent to cricketweb to set us straight - you're quite the opposite. You're not pointing out anything different by saying the double-jointed wrists help Murali. However, it's not just admitting a matter of fact point that his double jointed wrists help him out. It's that you're portraying something a certain way while ignoring any of our attempts to equate this advantage to other players because you don't like it that way. It's also that you're portraying it as an 'unfair advantage' - effectively, you're saying he's a cheat.

Agreed, thats a pretty good summation of Kazo's posts on this issue.
No-one would deny that Murali's wrist helps him - for example in bowling the doosra within the limits set for it. However, by that token - Garner's abnormal height gave him an advantage in terms of his toe crushing unplayable yorkers. And so on, as innumerable other posters have pointed out with a score of other examples.

I said earlier that this nonsense seems to be purely, and in Kazo's case, unfairly subjective. Further, there seems to be a problem here with what part of Murali we are calling deformed. As far as I know, whenever people talk about Murali they talk about him having a deformed elbow (due to a childhood bout of polio) which he is now unable to fully straighten, nothing is mentioned about his wrist (only his right wrist too iirc?) which seems to have been a physiological advantage granted him at birth. Whats important are the connotations of the two respective words, in this case "abnormal" (purely out of the ordinary) and "deformity" (ugly, scarred, marred etc). Its arguable to state that the wrist falls into the former category while the elbow falls into the latter category - though, imo, I dont hold to this as I dont see anything 'deformed' in an elbow one is unable to fully straighten (unlike say a hunchback, and even then only if I was to be cruel and unkind).

What should be made clearer is a simple point: Do you, Kazo, think that Murali derives an unfair advantage from his wrist? Do you think that lessens his achievements?

I ask these questions because your posts so far, have been anything but clear and definitive. Instead they are tainted by what I can only call a petty small-mindedness, and evince a bitter tall-poppy syndrome. Your answers will tell me whether I am right in that assessment, or if I owe you an apology.

 

[Ikki]

How is a double-jointed wrist any different from an abnormally (and naturally) strong wrist - neither has anything to do with talent. I'd wager that the flexibility and strength of Warne's wrist is so great that it is abnormal. So, is Warne getting an abnormal and unfair advantage or not?

Warne's wrists are strong. It implicates a variance, many people's wrists are strong but they're not double-jointed. They're not twisted so bad that Murali can bowl the way he does, out the back of his hand and still be deemed straight. The comparison is totally different here.

You'll say everything you can against Murali except actually going out and saying Murali doesn't deserve his wickets. I mean, you've devoted half a thread to proving to us that he gets an 'unfair advantage' - if that's not an attack on Murali, what is? You've made the thread an attack on Murali by omitting analysis of any other cricketer and writing it off as not fitting your definition.

See, you accuse me of something I have not implied nor, by your own admission, have said. You are a coward for trying to equate such a criticism for things that, after you have accused me of, I have come out to deny and show where I have said differently. The only reason I have taken my time in this thread is because I seriously cannot believe the waywardness logic has taken here. Are you freaking telling me that Murali gets no help from double-jointed wrists? That sounds insane. You cannot take one step back to take two forward.

No I am bloody well not. I have never said he doesn't get any help from his double-jointed wrists. However, I am saying that any help he may get from his double-jointed wrist doesn't constitute an 'unfair advantage'.

Yes, because you keep equating someone's deformity with someone's acquired talent.

Which is not to say Murali doesn't have any and it is his deformity. But the two are NOT equal as you keep repeating. So if that's why you don't think it constitutes an 'unfair advantage' you're going against logic here. If for something else, simply your own opinion, fine, so be it, I am not arguing that.

Ffs don't portray yourself as some sort of noble force sent to cricketweb to set us straight - you're quite the opposite. You're not pointing out anything different by saying the double-jointed wrists help Murali. However, it's not just admitting a matter of fact point that his double jointed wrists help him out. It's that you're portraying something a certain way while ignoring any of our attempts to equate this advantage to other players because you don't like it that way. It's also that you're portraying it as an 'unfair advantage' - effectively, you're saying he's a cheat.

LMAO, I don't have to portray myself as anything. I just don't bring up some RIDICULOUS comparison between the equality of someone who is extremely deficient and someone who is supremely efficient, whilst forgetting we already do that in the special olympics/paralympics.

The unfortunate aspect is that you are equating an acquired talent with a deformity. The same mistake Richard made, and he says he agrees with you so it's even more obvious how your examples are fraughtf with inaccuracies.

For e.g.

- great shot selection =/= double-jointed wrists
- bowling accurately =/= double-jointed wrists

See why they may be different?

 

[Ikki]

Ffs don't try and place yourself on a pedestal - you're not some sort of noble force sent to cricketweb to educate us all. You've been maintaining that Murali has an unfair advantage (actually, apparently it's more than unfair). Simply put, that is an accusation of cheating.

More than 'unfair' was in regards to the Athletic comparison. Just because something seems 'unfair' does not equate it with what I say about Murali.

And I have not accused Murali of cheating explicitly or implicitly. I haven't even used the word till now. What I think is unfair doesn't mean he cheats, he is within the rules - but I never said he wasn't within the rules DID I?

So you can stop putting words into my mouth and stop basing your accusations on something that doesn't exist. To me, that is extreme bias that you cannot get past your agenda with me liking Warne and concentrating what is actually said. I can't think of any other explanation, rather that your not wearing your glasses when you're reading my posts.

The unfortunate thing here is that you keep replying in a fashion, where others see your posts and make the same unfounded evaluation. Be more responsible with your rants. I've had to spend half my time here trying to show that I HAVEN'T said what you keep saying I've said or 'implied'.

 

[Ikki]

Agreed, thats a pretty good summation of Kazo's posts on this issue.
No-one would deny that Murali's wrist helps him - for example in bowling the doosra within the limits set for it. However, by that token - Garner's abnormal height gave him an advantage in terms of his toe crushing unplayable yorkers. And so on, as innumerable other posters have pointed out with a score of other examples.

To not deny is to accept. NO ONE has accepted it here. This is the first page where we're getting some people are saying "yeah, he does get it". You don't need to equate him getting it with other players getting it, supposedly or otherwise, you can just accept it and that's that. It's unbelievable how many people can't just say it straight.

I said earlier that this nonsense seems to be purely, and in Kazo's case, unfairly subjective. Further, there seems to be a problem here with what part of Murali we are calling deformed. As far as I know, whenever people talk about Murali they talk about him having a deformed elbow (due to a childhood bout of polio) which he is now unable to fully straighten, nothing is mentioned about his wrist (only his right wrist too iirc?) which seems to have been a physiological advantage granted him at birth. Whats important are the connotations of the two respective words, in this case "abnormal" (purely out of the ordinary) and "deformity" (ugly, scarred, marred etc). Its arguable to state that the wrist falls into the former category while the elbow falls into the latter category - though, imo, I dont hold to this as I dont see anything 'deformed' in an elbow one is unable to fully straighten (unlike say a hunchback, and even then only if I was to be cruel and unkind).

What should be made clearer is a simple point: Do you, Kazo, think that Murali derives an unfair advantage from his wrist? Do you think that lessens his achievements?

I ask these questions because your posts so far, have been anything but clear and definitive. Instead they are tainted by what I can only call a petty small-mindedness, and evince a bitter tall-poppy syndrome. Your answers will tell me whether I am right in that assessment, or if I owe you an apology.

I do think it's unfair, but that is as mother-nature wanted it. It's within the rules and I really don't have a problem with it. But, it seems more people are concerned with covering it up or making up for that fact than just saying: "yeah, he has it".

 

[Dasa]

Warne's wrists are strong. It implicates a variance, many people's wrists are strong but they're not double-jointed. They're not twisted so bad that Murali can bowl the way he does, out the back of his hand and still be deemed straight. The comparison is totally different here.

Newsflash, the position of Murali's wrist has absolutely nothing to do with how straight his arm is deemed. You seem to be confused as to what you're actually arguing. Anyway, you're again choosing to ignore the example I gave because it doesn't fit your view. I know, you'll give me the same old crap about normalcy, acquired talent etc etc - frankly, it counts for **** all because ultimately you're just choosing to exclude one thing and not the other with no actual evidence. I mean, double-jointedness is not uncommon. I myself have a double-jointed thumb. So it's not really so abnormal after all, probably around the same 'variance' as Warne's natural wrist strength.