PhoenixFire
International Coach
I don't think you can compare captaincy skills and playing skills.
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My top 20 allrounders of all-time
- Thread starter Days of Grace
- Start date
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School Boy/Girl Captain
Imran wasn't really that great a captain to be honest.
PhoenixFire
International Coach
Aritro
International Regular
'You could hear a pindrop...'
Captaincy is every part of playing the game, in fact prob more so than other facets.
Agree that it's easier to compare batting/bowling performances, but if one were to include the total package, then who comes out tops ?
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School Boy/Girl Captain
Don't really have time to argue this, but a 29% win record isn't a great one. Even New Zealand had a better win ratio under 3 captains in that period. Gavaskar is often criticised for the huge number of draws played under his captaincy. Imran was only marginally better, he had 26 draws in 48 tests to Gavaskar's 30 draws in 47 tests. If Gavaskar must be criticised for drawing so many games, perhaps because of India's poor bowling attack, then Imran must be criticised for almost as many draws despite having a more potent bowling attack at his disposal. Even his greatest triumph, the 92 World Cup win was built on the back of a huge huge slice of luck.
Xuhaib
International Coach
A lot of Pakistan cricket in the 80's was played on dead pitches including both home and abroad.
Sanz
Hall of Fame Member
It's not always about winning, its about building a team for future. Look at where Imran left Pakistan cricket team after his retirement. He left a team full of talents that served Pakistan for years. Its not easy to do it in subcontinent more so in Pakistan. Imran achieved everything that was there to achieve as a cricketer. He won the world cup, beat India in India, didn't lose a series to WI one of the alltime best teams.
Gavaskar was a great batsman and IMO best of his era, but he was not a leader.
Swervy
International Captain
Allrounder: A man you can say to 'go and play cricket' to, and he will do it to a high level all over the place, he will win you games, and he will embody everything cricket is about.
Its my definition.
It is what make Sobers one of the very greatest. It is what Ian Botham is about. It is, indeed, what makes (in no particular order) Freddie Flintoff, Chris Cairns, Mike Proctor, Clive Rice, Kapil Dev, Imran Khan, Keith Miller etc allrounders. The game should be played in an aggressive (in the good sense of the word) manner , out to win etc.
Now, I am sorry, but I dont care if Kallis averages 55 with the bat, and 32 with the ball. Give me Flintoff, selected as an allrounder any time. For me , some one like Flintoff, or any of the above mentioned will win games for you. That is what an allrounder does for me.
Anything less, doesnt cut it.
Swervy
International Captain
absolutley agree with you.
Seriously as a captain , I never rated him as highley as most. I will tell you all now, Javed Miandad, for all his faults (and I hate the guy), was tactically way superior to Imran Khan
I never thought he was tactically astute, and yeah he brought together a disparate bunch of players, and created winners. But for crying out loud, look at the players he had. Talent wise, the teams he captained were basically on a level with the West Indies for a time. Anything short of say, a World Cup win, (which in all honesty, was freakish, they were far from the best team, they came good at the right time , but despite the WC win, a pretty underacheiving team IMO, if we see the WC as not being the be all and end all, which in fact , it isnt) would have been massive failure. With players like he had, they should have swept all in front of them. They didnt.
Test wise, again, severe underacheivers, so much talent, not much reward.
Great bowler, one of the best, developed as a decent batsman, but with an average over the last 10 years which completely flattered to deceive..and in all reality a pretty average capatin, who seems to have made a reputation on the old 'cornered tiger' speech
As an analogy think of Imran and Miandad as Capt Kirk and Spock resp.
Spock may had the tactical astuteness but lacked the natural leadership of Kirk.
Prior to Imran's captaincy, the team was laden with talent, yet they failed to jell to their max. (Zaheer, Miandad, Asif Iqbal, Mushtaq, Sadiq, Majid, Sarfraz...)
When Imran took over, he changed the entire philosophy towards a fighting unit, and cared less for prima donnas. One of his first decisions and a painful one at that was to drop Majid, his cousin and mentor. That sent a message that the days of favouritism were over. Zaheer too was dropped at Imran's insistence.
At their peak with Imran as leader, they had less stars than before. And those that came after were caressed by Imran. (Qadir, Wasim, Waqar).
After retiring from cricket after their WC defeat to Aus, he was called out of retirement to lead the team to the WIndies, a daunting task, by no less than the state leader. And he did so admirably. In fact, with Imran at the helm, those 3 series draws against the formidable WIndies are stuff of legend. And it was he who insisted on neutral umps on home turf, even against such formidable foes.
The WC victory was earned the hard way. With injuries to himself and Waqar, it took a while for them to get their act together, but after that speech nothing could stand in their way. In the finals, his decision to bring Wasim into the attack to dismiss Lamb, Lewis was masterful. Pak wud never have won the WC without Imran.
If anyone has doubts about the value of leadership.....just look at Pak cricket now.
Spock may had the tactical astuteness but lacked the natural leadership of Kirk.
Prior to Imran's captaincy, the team was laden with talent, yet they failed to jell to their max. (Zaheer, Miandad, Asif Iqbal, Mushtaq, Sadiq, Majid, Sarfraz...)
When Imran took over, he changed the entire philosophy towards a fighting unit, and cared less for prima donnas. One of his first decisions and a painful one at that was to drop Majid, his cousin and mentor. That sent a message that the days of favouritism were over. Zaheer too was dropped at Imran's insistence.
At their peak with Imran as leader, they had less stars than before. And those that came after were caressed by Imran. (Qadir, Wasim, Waqar).
After retiring from cricket after their WC defeat to Aus, he was called out of retirement to lead the team to the WIndies, a daunting task, by no less than the state leader. And he did so admirably. In fact, with Imran at the helm, those 3 series draws against the formidable WIndies are stuff of legend. And it was he who insisted on neutral umps on home turf, even against such formidable foes.
The WC victory was earned the hard way. With injuries to himself and Waqar, it took a while for them to get their act together, but after that speech nothing could stand in their way. In the finals, his decision to bring Wasim into the attack to dismiss Lamb, Lewis was masterful. Pak wud never have won the WC without Imran.
If anyone has doubts about the value of leadership.....just look at Pak cricket now.
Sanz
Hall of Fame Member
May be, but Javed was very poor man manager, as one can see it through out his career, no eye for the talent and very keen to continue the parochial tradition of subcontinent cricket. In all those aspects Imran was miles ahead of Javed.
I agree Imran may not have been a very tactful captain, but that's the not the only thing you need to be a good leader and its not like he was clueless like Azhar. He was good enough in that department(would put him ahead of Steve Waugh and Lloyd) and I dont remember him making any blunders as a captain. Off the field He was a very vocal supporter of Neutral Umpiring and I personally thought of him as one of the great ambassadors of the game. All traits of a very good leader.
And I completely disagree that his team was as talented as the WI of 80s. There is no way he ever had a team as talented as the Lloyd's WI. His team won the Nehru cup in 1989 where all test nations played, won the 1992 WC, made the semi finals in 1983 and 1987. I dont understand how his team underperformed. His world cup win in 1992 was fully deserved, You must not forget he won despite majority of his players being very young, he himself was playing only as a batsman and rarely bowled.
Sanz
Hall of Fame Member
That's pure GOLD.
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School Boy/Girl Captain
Engle, I'll say it again. Imran's World Cup win is way over rated. If it hadn't rained after England dismissed Pakistan for 74, they wouldn't have made the semifinal even. Even overlooking that, teams routinely bring back their best bowler for a spell in the middle to get wickets, Imran bringing on Wasim was nothing special. If Wasim hadn't delivered with 2 beauties, it would have been just another throw of the dice. He had Wasim to fall back on, in another age, he might have had his pet Mohammad Sami bowling that over, and game over for Pakistan.
Fusion
Global Moderator
Exactly. "Ifs" can be used for Pakistan's point of view as well. "If" Waqar hadn't gotten hurt and missed the '92 WC, or if both Imran and Javed were completely healthy, Pak may have.dominated from the start.
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School Boy/Girl Captain
Well, if you're intent on rating slices of luck and not actual captaincy, be my guest.
thierry henry
International Coach
Lovely rant, but how many games did Sobers win with the ball. Kallis in his bowling prime was at least as likely as Sobers at his bowling prime (he never really had one...) to win a match with the ball.