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Kallis vs. Botham as an allrounder

Botham vs. Kallis: allrounder in tests

  • Ian Botham

    Votes: 26 86.7%
  • Jacques Kallis

    Votes: 4 13.3%

  • Total voters
    30
  • Poll closed .

aussie tragic

International Captain
But in full flow is a bit of a loaded term, no? I am not disputing if Richards was the best to look at, or the most destructive 'when in full flow', but that does not make him better.

Really, the amount of the runs you score, where you score them, and who you score them against make you a batsman. How fast you score them, or how you look while doing it, is really not a concern for me.
Sorry SS, giving my age away but rest assured that if you saw Sir Viv bat live, you would have a different opinion...Viv's average declined severly as he got older, unlike Border, Waugh and Chappell, which may make them better overall batsmen statistically, however having seen all in their prime, Viv was streets ahead (and yes I've obviously seen Lara & Tendulker in their prime and Viv is still the # 1 Batsman I've seen)
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Yes, I realize he declined as he aged. His average was in the high fifties for a while, if I remember correctly. Regardless of that, he was a great batsman but people put him higher than others who scored similarly. purely for the reason that he batted fast. All I am saying is if someone had scored the same amount of runs but at an S/R of 20 less than Viv, they would be rated much lower than Sir Viv is rated by many now...which is a method of ranking I disagree with.
 

Swervy

International Captain
But in full flow is a bit of a loaded term, no? I am not disputing if Richards was the best to look at, or the most destructive 'when in full flow', but that does not make him better.

Really, the amount of the runs you score, where you score them, and who you score them against make you a batsman. How fast you score them, or how you look while doing it, is really not a concern for me.
mmm...well over about 11 years from 1975 to 1986, vs the likes of Botham, Imran, Hadlee, Willis,Lillee,Thomson, Abdul qadir, Underwood,Bedi, Chandrasekhar,Venkat, Dev, Pringle...erm...forget Pringle:laugh: ....Richards averaged over 56, and for the first half of that period, he averaged about 67ish. No-one came close for so long in that era.

But for me it isnt always about sheer volume of runs. Richards was basically undismissable a lot of the time. What frustrated me a lot of the time was that it appeared like boredom or a sense of 'job done' took over with Richards, and he allowed himself to get out. What Richards did was destroy opposition. In the late 70s, early 80s there were two batsmen in world cricket that could do that. Richards and Botham. When you destroy the opposition, you gain huge advantages in games, even if you don't always get the huge runs.

Of course, the shots Richards played just added to the spectacle.

Give me the player who averages 50 and bats like Richards, over the player who averages 55 and bats like Boycott every single day of the week, because you will win more games, and that is what it is about
 

Swervy

International Captain
Yes, I realize he declined as he aged. His average was in the high fifties for a while, if I remember correctly. Regardless of that, he was a great batsman but people put him higher than others who scored similarly. purely for the reason that he batted fast. All I am saying is if someone had scored the same amount of runs but at an S/R of 20 less than Viv, they would be rated much lower than Sir Viv is rated by many now...which is a method of ranking I disagree with.
Its not because of strike rates for me thats for sure. Back then, no-one ever quoted a batsmans strike rate in tests.

The thing is, hardly anyone did score as heavily as Richards did, thats what makes your point a bit redundent, so this stuff about Strike Rates doesnt really apply. Sure, Greg Chappell did score very heavily, but he was a different type of player, possibly was more of a form player (if you had ever seen GSC bat in 1981/82, you might think differently) (by the way, I do think Chappell is one of the all time great batsmen as well, but I would pick King Viv over him)
 

Swervy

International Captain
What you have to remember is we are talking about elite batsmen, who have very high averages, and so its the intangibles that differentiate between them. Alot of it is down to opinion of course.

That doesnt apply in a comparison such as Haydos vs Hussain
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
how anyone can begin to compare kallis to botham as an allrounder is beyond me, certainly a superior batsman, but not even in the same league as an allrounder.
 

JBH001

International Regular
Agreed, its really not even worth debating.

There have been quite a few of these nonsense threads of a sudden in CW.
 

bagapath

International Captain
My top 10

1. G. Sobers
2. K. Miller
3. I. Khan
4. A. Faulkner
5. I. Botham
6. A. Greig
7. R. Hadlee
8. C. Cairns
9. S. Pollock
10. A. Davidson

Kallis doesn't make it as I set a min 2 wkts per test criteria :ph34r:

DoG: Maybe you want to check out this thread: http://forum.cricketweb.net/showthread.php?t=21126
you should replace hadlee with kapil dev. and take out davidson and have hadlee at no 10. davidson didnt even score one century you see. akram and mankad were better all rounders. of course, davidson is an all time great swing bowler and late order batsman. but not a world class all-rounder.
 

Xuhaib

International Coach
I agree that because of his defensive style of play Kallis good performances do net get as much appreciation as they deserve.

http://content-pak.cricinfo.com/rsavpak/engine/match/250667.html.

This is one of the games which I was able to watch bal by ball and Kallis performance in this game is as good as any all-round performance that you can wish to see but I highly doubt anyone on this forum actually remembers the match
 

Fiery

Banned
you should replace hadlee with kapil dev. and take out davidson and have hadlee at no 10. davidson didnt even score one century you see. akram and mankad were better all rounders. of course, davidson is an all time great swing bowler and late order batsman. but not a world class all-rounder.

Rubbish, Hadlee should be ahead of Greig at least
 

bagapath

International Captain
Rubbish, Hadlee should be ahead of Greig at least
why?

i think greig, kapil, cairns and pollock should be ranked above him. hadlee's batting average of 27 and two centuries in 86 tests put him in disadvantage.
 

Fiery

Banned
why?

i think greig, kapil, cairns and pollock should be ranked above him. hadlee's batting average of 27 and two centuries in 86 tests put him in disadvantage.
His batting was very cavalier so it was more about how he scored his runs rather than his average imo
 

Days of Grace

International Captain
My top 10:
1. Sobers
2. Imran
3. Kallis
4. Botham
5. Miller
6. Faulkner
sizable gap
7. Hadlee
8. Pollock
9. Kapil Dev
10. Greig
 

bagapath

International Captain
His batting was very cavalier so it was more about how he scored his runs rather than his average imo
kapil and cairns were more exciting to watch and they were much more reliable than hadlee. and they averaged 4 runs more than him. and played more match winning/ saving knocks than him. even pollock is not a slow batter. and he too average 5 runs more than him. greig could stonewall you to tears but then his average of 40 was good enough to place him among very good test batsmen.

hadlee comes below all these champions as an all-rounder. if this were a poll for fast bowlers, hadlee would be among the top three though.
 

Days of Grace

International Captain
A lot of people seem to be forgetting that for some allrounders, like Pollock, it is difficult for them to score centuries when they are batting at no.8.
 

Days of Grace

International Captain
kapil and cairns were more exciting to watch and they were much more reliable than hadlee. and they averaged 4 runs more than him. and played more match winning/ saving knocks than him. even pollock is not a slow batter. and he too average 5 runs more than him. greig could stonewall you to tears but then his average of 40 was good enough to place him among very good test batsmen.

hadlee comes below all these champions as an all-rounder. if this were a poll for fast bowlers, hadlee would be among the top three though.
Then what are we basing our criteria on for judging allrounders? I mean, Hadlee was one of the best bowlers that ever lived, so his enormous contribution to the team with the ball, plus his batting average of 27, makes him one of the best allrounders IMO.


IMO, it is how much your total performance of bat and ball influences your team. Kallis, thus, is one of the best allrounders.
 

Fiery

Banned
kapil and cairns were more exciting to watch and they were much more reliable than hadlee. and they averaged 4 runs more than him. and played more match winning/ saving knocks than him. even pollock is not a slow batter. and he too average 5 runs more than him. greig could stonewall you to tears but then his average of 40 was good enough to place him among very good test batsmen.

hadlee comes below all these champions as an all-rounder. if this were a poll for fast bowlers, hadlee would be among the top three though.
Fair enough, that's your opinion. His bowling prowess (which weighs a lot) + batting prowess = better allrounder than Greig, Kapil, Cairns and Pollock imo
 

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