Kallis vs. Botham as an allrounder

[vic_orthdox]

Botham never really reached the level of "great" with eiher bat or ball, so he's not quite as valuable as someone who commands their place as a great with one discipline and still contributes with the other, IMO.

I would've thought there was an argument that Botham's bowling was deserving of the description "great" throughout the early part of his career.

 

[Fiery]

Because there's more to cricket than averages.

I wouldn't rate Sobers > Kallis as a bowler. But I would rate Sobers as the 2nd best batsman ever

 

[The Sean]

I wouldn't rate Sobers > Kallis as a bowler. But I would rate Sobers as the 2nd best batsman ever

Fair enough mate. From what I've seen, heard and read, I'd rate Sobers bowling left arm fast-medium a better bowler than Kallis. But Sobers bowling spin (either variety) I would rate below Kallis.

Then again - Kallis doesn't bowl spin at all, the fact that Sobers could do it and do it competently is another argument in his favour.

 

[Fiery]

Fair enough mate. From what I've seen, heard and read, I'd rate Sobers bowling left arm fast-medium a better bowler than Kallis. But Sobers bowling spin (either variety) I would rate below Kallis.

Then again - Kallis doesn't bowl spin at all, the fact that Sobers could do it and do it competently is another argument in his favour.

Fair call

 

[Beleg]

Botham > Sobers = Kallis

Kallis is an amazing batsman; an all-time great. As a bowler, he's not as well rounded as Sobers but a more effective wicket-taker.

 

[Engle]

Kallis a defensive player, Botham an attacking one.

 

[Prince EWS]

Kallis a defensive player, Botham an attacking one.

Your point?

 

[Pup Clarke]

Kallis a defensive player, Botham an attacking one.

 

[Fiery]

Kallis a defensive player, Botham an attacking one.

Your point?

And that's funny why?

 

[Pup Clarke]

It's funny if he's trying to justify why one's better than the other.

 

[Prince EWS]

And that's funny why?

And you quoted me why?

 

[Fiery]

It's funny if he's trying to justify why one's better than the other.

And you quoted me why?

shut up

 

[short shorts]

Actually I'm very interested in knowing why Sobers should be regarded so ahead of Kallis that some people can even fit a Botham in the space between them.

Sobers' batting average was padded up by averaging 86 or thereabouts in 26 tests against India and Pakistan from the 50s to the early 70s. He averaged just 5 points more against Australia than Kallis has. He averaged 60 against England compared to Kallis' 47, but also averaged just 23 against New Zealand. Kallis performs the same home and away, with averages of 54-55 in both cases. Sobers averaged 66 at home and 50 away.

Sobers picked up 22 wickets more than Kallis in 14 tests less, but he also bowled 7000 deliveries more for those 22 wickets. Its not even close, Kallis has a bowling Strike rate of 67 and Sobers' strike rate was 91. Am I missing something? Surely an ability to bowl spin poorly shouldn't be that great a factor?

 

[Engle]

The point being that AR bring a certain amount of flair to the game, seeing that they have 2 cracks at showcasing themselves. Many of the great ARs such as Sobers, Miller, Imran, Faulkner, Kapil, Hadlee, Greig etc raised the level of excitement in the game.

Not to say that Kallis is a lesser player, in fact he's one of a few batting AR, which is to his credit.
Just that his ' flair factor ' is less than Botham's.

 

[Prince EWS]

The point being that AR bring a certain amount of flair to the game, seeing that they have 2 cracks at showcasing themselves. Many of the great ARs such as Sobers, Miller, Imran, Faulkner, Kapil, Hadlee, Greig etc raised the level of excitement in the game.

Not to say that Kallis is a lesser player, in fact he's one of a few batting AR, which is to his credit.
Just that his ' flair factor ' is less than Botham's.

It's not really relevant to the debate though. Players aren't intrinsically better for being more aggressive with the bat.

 

[aussie tragic]

At the moment I have Sobers, Imran, Kallis, Botham, Miller, Faulkner as my top 6 in that order.

My top 10

1. G. Sobers
2. K. Miller
3. I. Khan
4. A. Faulkner
5. I. Botham
6. A. Greig
7. R. Hadlee
8. C. Cairns
9. S. Pollock
10. A. Davidson

Kallis doesn't make it as I set a min 2 wkts per test criteria

DoG: Maybe you want to check out this thread: http://forum.cricketweb.net/showthread.php?t=21126

 

[short shorts]

Wickets per match is an iffy critereon considering it would be heavily influenced by the support cast the bowler has.

 

[Swervy]

Well I know who I would pick in my team out of the two....and he ain't South African

 

[short shorts]

Could you explain why ?

 

[Swervy]

Could you explain why ?

I could