Kallis vs. Botham as an allrounder

[Days of Grace]

It may sound stupid to some, but going by how much they contributed to their teams, Kallis' batting is far superior, whilst Botham's bowling was only three runs per wicket better than Kallis'.

So, who was the better allrounder?

 

[DCC_legend]

I'd have to go with Kallis for batting, as you say. But bowling it's tight. Botham took far more wickets in a similar number of tests, but then again he did bowl Nearly 8000 more balls than Kallis.

Argghh I'll go with Kallis for this one.

 

[silentstriker]

In Botham's prime, he was milesbetter as a bowler, though not as good a batsman (but still good enough to be a top 10 batsman in the world).

In the end, I value bowling all rounders much more than batting all rounders and while Kallis is an exceptional player, I have to go Botham.

Also, are we now going to compare Botham individually to every player that ever walked?

 

[Prince EWS]

I can't believe Kallis's bowling is being compared to Botham's at all, myself - Botham was quite easily the better bowler IMO. Kallis was by far the better batsman though, so the poll is again fairly even.

You'd probably have to say that Kallis is a better player - he's one of the top 5 batsmen of his time and, at times, has been a frontline bowler in his own right. Botham never really reached the level of "great" with eiher bat or ball, so he's not quite as valuable as someone who commands their place as a great with one discipline and still contributes with the other, IMO.

But, as an allrounder, Botham comes out on top for mine. Kallis's bowling, particularly as his career has gone along, has declined quite a bit, and it often doesn't even factor into the selection of the test team. He has only had short periods where his bowling has really been anything of note - so as an allrounder, I'd go with Botham.

 

[gettingbetter]

Before I give you my answer, I would like to ask if Kallis was originally a batsmen who bowled; someone in the Viv Ricahrds/Tendulkar role - picked 100% for their batting, but was handy with the ball. Because at the start of his career, I don't really remeber Kallis bowling all that often, and as the years went on, he was opening the bowling for SA. Or was he a batsmen who rolled his arm over occasionally like Ponting or Hussey.

Regardless, I would probably say that Kallis is the better player and Botham the better all-rounder, though, I would pick Kallis in my team before I would Botham.

 

[Prince EWS]

Before I give you my answer, I would like to ask if Kallis was originally a batsmen who bowled; someone in the Viv Ricahrds/Tendulkar role - picked 100% for their batting, but was handy with the ball. Because at the start of his career, I don't really remeber Kallis bowling all that often, and as the years went on, he was opening the bowling for SA. Or was he a batsmen who rolled his arm over occasionally like Ponting or Hussey.

Regardless, I would probably say that Kallis is the better player and Botham the better all-rounder, though, I would pick Kallis in my team before I would Botham.

Kallis started his career as a batting allrounder, and developed both skills reasonably equally, before eventually deciding to really concentrate on the batting. His bowling has suffered a bit since then, but he was definitely more than a part-timer when he started.

 

[Days of Grace]

Silent striker: "Also, are we now going to compare Botham individually to every player that ever walked?"

Not at all. I'm just adjusting my ratings list for allrounders in tests, and your opinions help. At the moment I have Sobers, Imran, Kallis, Botham, Miller, Faulkner as my top 6 in that order.

 

[Anil]

as an allrounder botham fairly easily for me....

 

[Perm]

Silent striker: "Also, are we now going to compare Botham individually to every player that ever walked?"

Not at all. I'm just adjusting my ratings list for allrounders in tests, and your opinions help. At the moment I have Sobers, Imran, Kallis, Botham, Miller, Faulkner as my top 6 in that order.

Kallis should come down a bit lower. I'd have Sobers, Imran, Botham and Miller above him. Unfortunately I don't know too much about Faulkner so I can't really rate him properly.

 

[bagapath]

sir beefy, quite easily. he was capable of winning the match with bat or ball or, not infrequently, both. kallis can never be a match winning bowler.

 

[Prince EWS]

sir beefy, quite easily. he was capable of winning the match with bat or ball or, not infrequently, both. kallis can never be a match winning bowler.

Never is a strong word.
.....
.....

Kallis isn't a particularly good bowler, but he is a potential matchwinner as are most bowlers. He's done it before.

 

[bagapath]

4 five wicket hauls in 107 tests is not a match winning bowler's stat, pal.

 

[Prince EWS]

4 five wicket hauls in 107 tests is not a match winning bowler's stat, pal.

Yes, yes it is. It doesn't mean he's very good, but it means his bowling can win matches - the two I linked being prime examples. Once your bowling has won matches, you have been a match-winning bowler.

 

[Dr_Brad]

Ian Botham
i was reading an aticle they polled 100 cricketers and the question was who is the overall worlds best all-rounder
Flintoff won it
Kallis Second

 

[bagapath]

Yes, yes it is. It doesn't mean he's very good, but it means his bowling can win matches - the two I linked being prime examples. Once your bowling has won matches, you have been a match-winning bowler.

even kris srikkanth and viv richards and sachin tendulkar had won one or two one day matches with their bowling. allan border won a test match againt west indies with his left arm spin. these instances dont make them match winning bowlers. you dont take these aberrations and start comparing these players with imrans and millers. kallis has probably won a match or two with his bowling. but he is a support seamer. not a match winning spearhead, which botham was.

 

[short shorts]

I cannot see how people who claim Botham > Kallis can then go on to claim Sobers > Botham too (not that those are necessarily my views), given how sort-of-similar Sobers' and Kallis' stats are.

 

[Perm]

I cannot see how people who claim Botham > Kallis can then go on to claim Sobers > Botham too (not that those are necessarily my views), given how sort-of-similar Sobers' and Kallis' stats are.

There stats are similar, doesn't mean that they were similar players in regards to their bowling.

 

[Days of Grace]

Kallis averages 31 with the ball. Sobers averages 34. Why then, is Sobers always rated as the much better bowler?

 

[Perm]

Kallis averages 31 with the ball. Sobers averages 34. Why then, is Sobers always rated as the much better bowler?

Versatility.

 

[The Sean]

Kallis averages 31 with the ball. Sobers averages 34. Why then, is Sobers always rated as the much better bowler?

Because there's more to cricket than averages.