***Official*** Pakistan in South Africa

[Beleg]

I'm sure you know that there's a clear difference in that example. You just have to look at the historical context, the ethnic make-up of of the respective nationalities. In fact, I would call it a racist remark depending on the context anyway.

You don't have to 'look' into anything. If somebody's acting like a complete nincompoop, I am as liable as Herschelle Gibbs to tell them to **** off to the ****ing zoo. It is not the Pakistani's that are being compared to animals, it is (human) idiots. There's a significant difference, I hope.

The problem here is that you are automatically extrapolating from a) Gibbs is white, b) some racists compared the dark-skinned denizens of Pakistan/sub-continent with animals in by-gone days that Gibbs that he must have meant it in a racist manner. You are actively searching for a way to link Gibbs's comment with racism. There's absolutely no proof whatsoever that Gibbs meant it in a racist manner, and before you go off and say that there is also no proof to the contrary, answer a point of mine.

How many educated, reasonably aware people make throway comments linking idiots to animals compared with equating dark-skinned people in an already sensitively charged envoirnment to animals. Gibbs has to be a practising racist to have gone with the later thought-process, and one might think that in a country like South Africa, he might have been caught earlier.

Saying that Gibbs's comment is racist without any PROOF WHATSOEVER is equal to striking out the word 'black' from the nursery rhyme ba ba black sheep because it might be offensive to black-skinned people.

Given history, EVERYTHING can be construed as a racist comment. One of the basic premise of modern law is 'innocence until proven guilty'. Where is you OVERWHELMINGLY SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE that Gibbs meant this in a racist manner? Until anyone can come up with that, please don't call him a racist. He might have acted in an ungainly manner and hurt the spirit of cricket (whatever the **** that means), based on this incident, there's no evidence whatsoever that he racially motivated.



So insulting someone from Pakistan and calling them a Pakistani in the process is now a crime punishable with a two test ban? Whatever, I don't really feel strongly enough about the ban thingy to argue about it, but calling him a racist is just way too much.

"This **** is more destructive in combating actual racism then anything else

Calling someone a racist is not a casual insult. By jumping on the racism bangwagon in such a callous manner, one is undermining how seriously destructive racism can sometimes be. When you make a joke out of something, people tend to take it less seriously... That is pretty much the way of the world.

 

[Beleg]

I'm not advocating stifling discussion. Nor am I boasting about Asif and Akhter getting away with what they did. Lastly, I didn't go down the "none of this matters" slope. I said people are over-reacting. You will forgive me if I don't agree with the implications that what has recently transpired is something new and destructive for cricket. Like you stated, the doping scandal has given some on this board a great opportunity take "cute digs" at Pakistan cricket. The only way their digs have resonance is if they make it sound like cricket is facing its biggest crisis since the sport was formed. I suggest we are no where close to that. Hence my own personal rant about keeping it in perspective and relaxing a little.

I don't think anyone at all knowledgeable about how the world works is seriously insinuating that cricket is ZOMG GOING TO END!11!1 The digs are a result of the competitive nature of the sport, supporting your own team at the expense of the others and inherent urge of 'one-upping' your opponent, in most cases, at least.

I like rants, so fair enough. What big rants sometimes do is stiffle further discussion, even if the ranter didn't intend as such, I am merely doing my part in ensuring that bits keep on being added to the page.

 

[gunner]

end of subject
theres nothing any of you can do about it and theres no point any of you going on about it as if it affects you your life
get a life or move on
gibbs is probably asleep now and if he doesnt lose sleep over this then why are you all wasting yuor time discussing this?
once again
either get a life or move on
noone cares

 

[vic_orthdox]

Come on. It's clearly crossing the line when you bring race/nationality into it, and it's a very different situation to saying ****ing poms or something like that.

I'm guessing you're alluding to the animal references, but if not - how is saying "****ing poms" different to "****ing Pakistanis"?

 

[FRAZ]

Given history, EVERYTHING can be construed as a racist comment.


.

For example?

 

[vic_orthdox]

well the fans hitting ntini in the head with a flag aint been proved,

if it was true we would have seen a much moe bigger deal being made out of it

smith is making excuses and everyone in the world knwos how much of a racist smith himself is

I'd suggest you refrain from such comments in the future.

 

[FRAZ]

Pakistanis come in all shades of brown, white and black.

Once a Spanish lady was talking to me in a public transit system . And asked me "Amigo where you from "?
I said I was born in Pakistan .
She said are you mixed cuz you dont look **** .I was speechless at her innocent response cuz she explained to me afterwards that she has some **** friends and names that she told me were kinda Srilankan or South Indian names.
When she used the word P*** ,it was a totally different scenario and the Gibbs' one was totally flam-bait. The thing is we should take the motive and expression of the person while he/she delivers some slang ..

 

[Fusion]

I don't think anyone at all knowledgeable about how the world works is seriously insinuating that cricket is ZOMG GOING TO END!11!1 The digs are a result of the competitive nature of the sport, supporting your own team at the expense of the others and inherent urge of 'one-upping' your opponent, in most cases, at least.

I like rants, so fair enough. What big rants sometimes do is stiffle further discussion, even if the ranter didn't intend as such, I am merely doing my part in ensuring that bits keep on being added to the page.

Fair enough. However, I must disagree that the competitive nature of the sport is resulting in the recent digs. I know that I'm competitive, however I would not resort to the cheap shots that some have thrown around just to "one-up" my opponent. They are a small minority, but they can be annoying. Must....resist...responding...to their digs.

 

[FRAZ]

competitive .

Friendly banters are necessary for the competitiveness and not the ****in household trained racial slurs .

 

[Fusion]

Well in other news, at least the post count in this thread has gone up. Compared to the India in WI thread, this one doesn't even come close.

 

[haroon510]

You slept for a long time didn't you pal, the South Africans were still batting twenty four hours later.

well it was 3 o clock at night i slept and then didnt check the score card i thought the match is over on that day (it was day four). i didn't watch the fifth day and i check early morning it was over.
cape town is that the second test or third test?

 

[TT Boy]

well it was 3 o clock at night i slept and then didnt check the score card i thought the match is over on that day (it was day four). i didn't watch the fifth day and i check early morning it was over.
cape town is that the second test or third test?

Third.

 

[haroon510]

Third.

but why?

 

[TT Boy]

but why?

Because his not fit yet, AD said that he saw him on the weekend bowling and he looked rather rusty.

 

[haroon510]

Because his not fit yet, AD said that he saw him on the weekend bowling and he looked rather rusty.

man u always bring bad news for my fivrate team lol. then who else is going to play sami and rana comon i don't wana see clean sweep 3-0 here.

 

[Dasa]

You don't have to 'look' into anything. If somebody's acting like a complete nincompoop, I am as liable as Herschelle Gibbs to tell them to **** off to the ****ing zoo. It is not the Pakistani's that are being compared to animals, it is (human) idiots. There's a significant difference, I hope.

The problem here is that you are automatically extrapolating from a) Gibbs is white, b) some racists compared the dark-skinned denizens of Pakistan/sub-continent with animals in by-gone days that Gibbs that he must have meant it in a racist manner. You are actively searching for a way to link Gibbs's comment with racism. There's absolutely no proof whatsoever that Gibbs meant it in a racist manner, and before you go off and say that there is also no proof to the contrary, answer a point of mine.

How many educated, reasonably aware people make throway comments linking idiots to animals compared with equating dark-skinned people in an already sensitively charged envoirnment to animals. Gibbs has to be a practising racist to have gone with the later thought-process, and one might think that in a country like South Africa, he might have been caught earlier.

Saying that Gibbs's comment is racist without any PROOF WHATSOEVER is equal to striking out the word 'black' from the nursery rhyme ba ba black sheep because it might be offensive to black-skinned people.

Given history, EVERYTHING can be construed as a racist comment. One of the basic premise of modern law is 'innocence until proven guilty'. Where is you OVERWHELMINGLY SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE that Gibbs meant this in a racist manner? Until anyone can come up with that, please don't call him a racist. He might have acted in an ungainly manner and hurt the spirit of cricket (whatever the **** that means), based on this incident, there's no evidence whatsoever that he racially motivated.

A few things. Firstly, Gibbs isn't 'white'. Secondly, I never called Gibbs a racist. In fact, I've repeatedly stated that I don't think he had any racist intentions and it was merely something stupid. I don't think Gibbs is a racist either, just someone who made a silly remark. However, I will still call the remark itself racist (or racially tinged) because it was a remark that generalised about an entire people. He has been punished because some people obviously found the comment offensive. I agree, there's no evidence that the comment was racially motivated, however it was highly insensitive. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm likening this incident to the Dean Jones 'terrorist' gaffe. I don't think he is a racist either, but he made a racially insensitive remark and suffered the consequences.

Calling someone a racist is not a casual insult. By jumping on the racism bangwagon in such a callous manner, one is undermining how seriously destructive racism can sometimes be. When you make a joke out of something, people tend to take it less seriously... That is pretty much the way of the world.

I know all of that, and again, I never called Gibbs a racist. All throughout this thread, I have been commenting on what was said, not who said it.

Anyway, we've both said our piece. I don't have any more to add.

I'm guessing you're alluding to the animal references, but if not - how is saying "****ing poms" different to "****ing Pakistanis"?

Depending on the context, it isn't any different. I should've said that in the first place.

 

[adharcric]

Looks like I missed out on some discussion ...

Gibbs' remarks weren't really racist IMO. He called the idiots in the crowd what they were acting like (animals) and who they are (Pakistanis).
Putting the expletives in there shouldn't make a difference. As for Pakistanis implicitly being linked with animals in that remark, that's stretching it tbh.
This doesn't compare with the Amla "terrorist" remark either. That clearly associated bearded Muslims with terrorists; this one isn't really doing much harm. That's all.
Some ultra-sensitive overreactions in here, but they've come from respected posters so perhaps I'm misunderstanding the situation.

 

[Pratters]

I personally think Gibbs is being rather harshly done by; what he said was out of order, no doubt, but I really don't think it qualifies as racial abuse. I think reading it as such says more about deeply ingrained cultural connections between people of colour & animals. Even now in Spain & Italy black football players are subjected to monkey-noises from the crowds & over here not twenty years ago certain ****-witted English fans used to take bananas to pelt at John Barnes. Of course anyone with a brain would never dream of doing this, but we unfortunately do understand the reference.

A fine of a portion (or maybe even all of) his match fee would've sufficed for me.

It is very poor when football crowds chant such noises. I have seen some occassions in Spain and the racism in it is so sad.

Regarding the given instance, a case can be made that a 2 match ban may or may not be very harsh but from where I sit, an international cricketer should be sensible enough to know what he says and if he says some thing which can have an implication of having a racial under current, it is needed that there is some strong punishment meted out.

Racism, even the hint of it, has to be kicked out of sport and I would have been unhappy with any thing less than a 1 match ban. That it was a 2 match ban and it has been brought into spotlight means that cricketers will think twice before bringing racism into sport. I mentioned regarding India earlier and far too often they have not made big deals an I am glad Pakistan has here and all the more, action has been taken.

If the offense was not racism, there could be reason for it to be analysed seeing intent. Dean Jones got a tough punishment it may seem but racism is a grave and so the action was needed there as well. Just because Jones was stupid did not mean he didn't deserve to lose his job or Gibbs didn't deserve to get a severe punishment.

I can totally see why some people like you and others might feel the punishment is too harsh given he might not have intended to say such a thing or didn't intend to say such a thing in the context it was taken. However, the implications, as it is with most racial slurs, cannot be ignored and so I am happy with the 2 match ban.

 

[adharcric]

I can totally see why some people like you and others might feel the punishment is too harsh given he might not have intended to say such a thing or didn't intend to say such a thing in the context it was taken.

It's not even about his intent. I'm having a tough time understanding why his statement is really racist.

 

[Pratters]

It's not even about his intent. I'm having a tough time understanding why his statement is really racist.

As Brumby mentioned with his Spain example, we do associate animals with racial slurs nowadays. So even while Gibbs may or may not have intended it to be racist, implications exist.