S Africa calls for its players to stay

[SeamUp]

The reason abbott isnt garunteed a test spot is because he's only their fourth best seamer, not because of a qouta system. When one of steyn, philander or rabada is injured then he'll be straight in. Simple as that. He's gone for the money

Quota system definitely has a role. He is fighting for one spot with Steyn/Morkel and even if he performs well enough like the WC he can't even keep his place. Mentally that effects someone because they are not robots.

 

[SeamUp]

CWC debacle definitely left scars.

AB, Morkel, Steyn, Philander were kept when there was a serious chance of them leaving SA cricket.

Eventually it caught up with us with Rilee and Abbo.


Lorgat : Behardien or Rossouw and Philander or Abbott

 

[StephenZA]

Quota system definitely has a role. He is fighting for one spot with Steyn/Morkel and even if he performs well enough like the WC he can't even keep his place. Mentally that effects someone because they are not robots.

Very true... possibly Rabada going straight into the test team also upset Abbott.

CWC debacle definitely left scars.

AB, Morkel, Steyn, Philander were kept when there was a serious chance of them leaving SA cricket.

Eventually it caught up with us with Rilee and Abbo.


Lorgat : Behardien or Rossouw and Philander or Abbott

In reality it should not have been Philander or Abbott, Steyn should have been dropped for Philander. But reputation meant you could not drop Steyn. And quota would still have been mentioned...

 

[akilana]

Why drop Steyn for Philander when Philander was always crap in LOI cricket.

 

[SeamUp]

Very true... possibly Rabada going straight into the test team also upset Abbott.

I reality it should not have been Philander or Abbott, Steyn should have been dropped for Philander. But reputation meant you could not drop Steyn. And quota would still have been mentioned...

Why should Steyn have been dropped for Philander though ? The champion and premier SA bowler who may not be as good a LO's bowler as test but still has had a decent ODI career and bowled better than Philander in the tournament.

Plus Philander has never been considered a top limited overs player. His batting is technically correct and his bowling relies on swing and seam and accuracy which is why he is test class after producing at first class level for a number of seasons.


True on the Rabada thing skipping Abbott. Rabada is a freak though but probably still tough to understand.

For Rossouw for example he has been getting hundreds and doing well for longer and before Bavuma so he clearly can feel a gripe about that. Rossouw has 17 FC hundreds for Knights/SA 'A' at 46 while Bavuma has 10 for Lions/SA 'A' at 45. But for SA 'A' Rossouw averaged 56 while Bavuma was 36. Rossouw also out-performed Van Zyl for SA 'A' quite comfortably but it was probably more the RR's attitude and self-belief that should have made CSA realise he had it more than Stiaan.

 

[akilana]

^^ yeah have to feel for Russow. He was more talented and travelled with the A team plenty of times and did well.

 

[StephenZA]

Why should Steyn have been dropped for Philander though ? The champion and premier SA bowler who may not be as good a LO's bowler as test but still has had a decent ODI career and bowled better than Philander in the tournament.

Plus Philander has never been considered a top limited overs player. His batting is technically correct and his bowling relies on swing and seam and accuracy which is why he is test class after producing at first class level for a number of seasons.


True on the Rabada thing skipping Abbott. Rabada is a freak though but probably still tough to understand.

For Rossouw for example he has been getting hundreds and doing well for longer and before Bavuma so he clearly can feel a gripe about that. Rossouw has 17 FC hundreds for Knights/SA 'A' at 46 while Bavuma has 10 for Lions/SA 'A' at 45. But for SA 'A' Rossouw averaged 56 while Bavuma was 36. Rossouw also out-performed Van Zyl for SA 'A' quite comfortably but it was probably more the RR's attitude and self-belief that should have made CSA realise he had it more than Stiaan.

Overall record Steyn been brilliant... but he was not bowling great in the tournament. Philander bowled well initially before injury. Look it was never a great decision in terms of team dynamics and was pure politics... but Philander was the encumbent until injury. Abbott was bowling well, Steyn was not... hence Philander in for Steyn. If any change at all.

 

[mackembhoy]

When you are professional you cannot study.

The semi-pro's and amateurs do study in South Africa.

Simon Mignolet and Duncan watmore managed to finish degrees while playing for Sunderland.

Stuart Armstrong is studying to be a lawyer while playing for Celtic. Different sports and wages. But the football season is longer than the cricket season.

Mind none of these are/were on huge amounts.

 

[Rasimione]

I'm looking at some of the comments and I'm wondering what would people do to ensure equal access for all.

 

[akilana]

Overall record Steyn been brilliant... but he was not bowling great in the tournament. Philander bowled well initially before injury. Look it was never a great decision in terms of team dynamics and was pure politics... but Philander was the encumbent until injury. Abbott was bowling well, Steyn was not... hence Philander in for Steyn. If any change at all.

It was steyn's spell with abott that choked the life out of SL in the QF. Philander was carrying an injury and was a crap LOI bowler and didnt bowl well in the WC either. It was quota that forced Abott out of the SF so lets not pretend otherwise

 

[LegionOfBrad]

The reason abbott isnt garunteed a test spot is because he's only their fourth best seamer, not because of a qouta system. When one of steyn, philander or rabada is injured then he'll be straight in. Simple as that. He's gone for the money

Not tests but he was absolutely the victim of quota's in the World Cup Semi.

 

[SeamUp]

I'm looking at some of the comments and I'm wondering what would people do to ensure equal access for all.

I'm sure all countries would love that too.

I've definitely seen more academies being created for the less advantaged and there are more opportunities now than before. It is taking time but the question is when did they start aggressively with these academies. There is no quick fix. It has to be from the bottom up and definitely not that the other way around.

 

[Noah]

It is unbelievably ridiculous. How is it justifiable that a coach and captain have to basically juggle a team to bring in a white player to "balance the books".

Lets not fool eachother, the situation is critical, because it does not look like the "balancing" has reached its pinnacle yet.

Top down transformation does not work.

Well it's probably just a matter of opinion but I don't think the minor juggling of line ups is that ridiculous compared with the fact that Ntini is the only notable black player to represent South Africa to date. It's ridiculous that nearly a generation later there are still massive hangovers from the days of apartheid and a lot of apathy towards fixing them.

I also don't see the transformation process as being a 'top down' one. I think that is just a lack of understanding of what is going on.

Firstly, quotas are a small part of the transformation process, most of which is occurring from the bottom up. Over the years there has been significant investment in mini-cricket and providing equipment and facilities to grow school cricket around the country. CSA provides numerous bursaries to schools to support players who need assistance. You've also got plenty of independent bodies supporting cricket at grassroots levels, notably Fort Hare and Mike Procter. Then at higher levels the CSA and SACA have started the Player Plus support program and less than two years ago the CSA doubled their investment in facilities around the country, including an expansion of the 'regional performance centres'. These are all measures that specifically target and assist black cricketers so that the transformation isn't just a 'top down' approach.

Secondly, transformation has already taken place at lower levels. Quotas are in place because franchise and national cricket is lagging behind the changes that have been taking place at lower levels for years. Participation and representation of coloured people in school and provincial cricket is quite high at the moment - the problem is that representation falls away dramatically when you get to the franchise level. The 'quotas' are being pushed because there is a perception (perhaps unfairly) that the higher levels of cricket have been too complacent and done little to embrace this change

 

[SeamUp]

Well it's probably just a matter of opinion but I don't think the minor juggling of line ups is that ridiculous compared with the fact that Ntini is the only notable black player to represent South Africa to date. It's ridiculous that nearly a generation later there are still massive hangovers from the days of apartheid and a lot of apathy towards fixing them.

I also don't see the transformation process as being a 'top down' one. I think that is just a lack of understanding of what is going on.

Firstly, quotas are a small part of the transformation process, most of which is occurring from the bottom up. Over the years there has been significant investment in mini-cricket and providing equipment and facilities to grow school cricket around the country. CSA provides numerous bursaries to schools to support players who need assistance. You've also got plenty of independent bodies supporting cricket at grassroots levels, notably Fort Hare and Mike Procter. Then at higher levels the CSA and SACA have started the Player Plus support program and less than two years ago the CSA doubled their investment in facilities around the country, including an expansion of the 'regional performance centres'. These are all measures that specifically target and assist black cricketers so that the transformation isn't just a 'top down' approach.

Secondly, transformation has already taken place at lower levels. Quotas are in place because franchise and national cricket is lagging behind the changes that have been taking place at lower levels for years. Participation and representation of coloured people in school and provincial cricket is quite high at the moment - the problem is that representation falls away dramatically when you get to the franchise level. The 'quotas' are being pushed because there is a perception (perhaps unfairly) that the higher levels of cricket have been too complacent and done little to embrace this change

Tell me who these star 'black' players are that didn't get opportunities or are getting opportunities now that wouldn't have got them before ? That is not a problem from the top that is due to there being better cricketers than them and that is down too early development/coaching and skills. That is down to acting too late on aggressive funding for facilities and coaching (who would be the coaches? Are they good enough?) at grass roots level.

Rabada, Bavuma, Zondo, Phehlukwayo, Ngidi are good examples of young black cricketers with genuine ability.

Schools : St Stithians, St Davids, Westville, Glenwood, Hilton. All good skills with good coaching and facilities and hence they got their opportunities at higher levels because of that and not because of quota rules.

Therefore if CSA acted more aggressively sooner then maybe more players would have developed better earlier. But only in recent years have they done this.

Please don't come here and say transformation/quotas are alright because they aren't. They just window-dressing. Lets get them there on merit.

 

[Noah]

Tell me who these star 'black' players are that didn't get opportunities or are getting opportunities now that wouldn't have got them before ? That is not a problem from the top that is due to there being better cricketers than them and that is down too early development/coaching and skills. That is down to acting too late on aggressive funding for facilities and coaching (who would be the coaches? Are they good enough?) at grass roots level

As a white player at provincial level there is a 50% chance you'll go onto franchise cricket. As a black player that chance decreases to something like 30%. I'm sure a small differential could be attributed to differences in early development but certainly not that gap. Significant barriers exist to black players in that jump from development cricket to semi-pro and pro cricket.

 

[Marius]

As a white player at provincial level there is a 50% chance you'll go onto franchise cricket. As a black player that chance decreases to something like 30%. I'm sure a small differential could be attributed to differences in early development but certainly not that gap. Significant barriers exist to black players in that jump from development cricket to semi-pro and pro cricket.

Source?

 

[Noah]

Source?

It was a study run by Corrie Van Zyl a while ago. I'm struggling to find the report at the moment - this article refers to it in passing:

CSA?s search for black cricketers | IOL

Edit: a bit more here http://m.sport24.co.za/sport24/Cricket/Incentive-driven-quota-policy-20131012

 

[Noah]

Found an article that references the study (just skip to the last few paragraphs). Still can't find the original report through: www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/201...are-deeply-flawed-and-misguided/#.WG61PMqnzqA

 

[brockley]

I guess the old white players will stick around for another few years,no pressure for them to retire,thats unless they increase the quotas to 8/9.
I am not joking btw,the ammount of whites playing in Zimbabwe domestic cricket is like 1 white per team.
Expect the Government to push for greater quotas next year,how many I dunno,it certainly is a popularity measure.
The sports minister wants 7 or 60 %,but will they stop at that.

 

[StephenZA]

How Kyle Abbott walked away from South Africa | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo
What scares me here, is he admits its not much more money than CSA pay him... quotas I`m sure are an issue, but I think this feels very much like not wanting to stay in SA long term due to the current uncertain political/economic climate.