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Your top ten TEST bowlers of ALL-TIME

Muloghonto

U19 12th Man
Oh so ATG teams will only consist of spin dominant batsmen. K. Seems kinda weird that Muralitharan couldn't perform against a ****ty spin playing nation like Australia though. Mustn't have cared enough I spose.
Most ATG batsmen would be extremely competent against spin. The likes of Gavaskar, Boycott, Tendulkar, Lara, Sobers, Dravid, Viv, Greg Chappell, Sehwag, etc - the probable candidates to some ATG teams are all in the top 1-2% of spin players ever.
So your point is moot.
 

Muloghonto

U19 12th Man
You have probably read somewhere that Murali averaged 75 in Australia? 106 while representing Sri Lanka? But never mind. You know better than the facts.
So ? It does not make the Aussie team, at any point in the last 50 years, better batters against spin than the Indian team.
 

Burgey

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Good to know you can be an ATG if you play spin well despite getting knocked over regularly by the likes of Tony Dodemaide and Chris Matthews.
 
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watson

Banned
IN INDIA

Murali: 11 Tests, Ave = 45.45
Warne: 9 Tests, Ave = 43.12

Compared to (for example);

Underwood: 16 Tests, Ave = 26.52
Gibbs: 9 Tests, Ave = 23.38


Perhaps Murali and Warne are both horribly over-rated.
 

Burgey

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We should have a draft to decide it, as long as everyone is prompt in making their selections and doesn't have a life to lead.
 

Howe_zat

Audio File
IN INDIA

Murali: 11 Tests, Ave = 45.45
Warne: 9 Tests, Ave = 43.12

Compared to (for example);

Underwood: 16 Tests, Ave = 26.52
Gibbs: 9 Tests, Ave = 23.38


Perhaps Murali and Warne are both horribly over-rated.
Because playing India in the 1960s was exactly the same
 

OverratedSanity

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IN INDIA

Murali: 11 Tests, Ave = 45.45
Warne: 9 Tests, Ave = 43.12

Compared to (for example);

Underwood: 16 Tests, Ave = 26.52
Gibbs: 9 Tests, Ave = 23.38


Perhaps Murali and Warne are both horribly over-rated.
Yeah, comparing averages of bowlers in a country half a century apart , and then using it as a criteria to prove who is better makes...... sense?
 

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Because playing India in the 1960s was exactly the same
I support Watson's post. And I actually very firmly believe that how well you go in India is the most definitive stat there is and I have written several emails to cricinfo offering to author an article to this effect.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
So ? It does not make the Aussie team, at any point in the last 50 years, better batters against spin than the Indian team.
And you'd be able to back that up by quoting which figure or fact exactly? Is this just another one of those cases when you opinion trumps all?

Since 1960 the top ten spin bowlers have averages ranging btwn 26 - 40 against Australia. Four have averages in the 20s.

The top 10 spinners v India have ranged 22 - 48. 3 have averages in the 20s.

There is little difference btwn either country's ability to play spin. Certainly India is not demonstrably better.
 

watson

Banned
Because playing India in the 1960s was exactly the same
Derek Underwood never played in India during the 1960s. Instead he toured from 1972 to 1982 and had to contend with batsman such as Gavaskar, Viswanath, Amarnath, and Kapil Dev. I don't think that Murali or Warne had it any tougher than Underwood as I can't imagine the pitches or hot weather being much different. But a local might be able to correct me on that.

As for Gibbs, well he had to try and bowl out the likes of Roy, Contractor, Umrigar, Manjrekar, Borde, Pataudi, Engineer, Gavaskar and Viswanath between 1958 and 1975. That task might be a little easier, but not much so. And again, had the Indian pitches really changed that much between the late 50s and 00s ?

Perhaps we are concentrating too much on Murali and Warne and automatically assuming them to be significantly superior to other ATG spinners. But from what I can make out (admittedly briefly), there is a reasonable case for preferring Underwood in Indian conditions.
 
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OverratedSanity

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Derek Underwood never played in India during the 1960s. Instead he toured from 1972 to 1982 and had to contend with batsman such as Gavaskar, Viswanath, Amarnath, and Kapil Dev. I don't think that Murali or Warne had it any tougher than Underwood as I can't imagine the pitches or hot weather being much different. But a local might be able to correct me on that.

As for Gibbs, well he had to try and bowl out the likes of Roy, Contractor, Umrigar, Manjrekar, Borde, Pataudi, Engineer, Gavaskar and Viswanath between 1958 and 1975. That task might be a little easier, but not much so. And again, had the Indian pitches really changed that much between the late 50s and 00s ?

Perhaps we are concentrating too much on Murali and Warne and automatically assuming them to be significantly superior to other ATG spinners. But from what I can make out (admittedly briefly), there is a reasonable case for preferring Underwood in Indian conditions.
Gavaskar, Amarnath, Viswanath, kapil is as good a lineup as Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman/Azharuddin , Ganguly? I don't see how you can argue that our 90s/2000s lineup wasn't far superior . Murali and Warne had it way tougher.

Even if we assume underwood was better for indian conditions, how does that mean that he is close to Warne and Murali as you suggest. I think the top three spinners of all time are Warne Murali and O'reilly by a clear distance for a reason. It's because their achievements dwarf most others'.

I'm all for celebrating the past, but I just think you're kidding yourself if you believe underwood was as good as Murali/Warne
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Off the cuff

- Barnes
- Orielly
- Grimmett
- Lindwall
- Lillee
- Imran
- Hadlee
- Marshall
- Waqar
- Murali
 

the big bambino

International Captain
Top list though I always wonder why people prefer Waqar over Akram, great though both were. EDIT re Underwood. I wouldn't say he was as good as Warne but don't think there is that much between them. From recollection he was a magnificent bowler and caused Australia a high proportion of the problems Warne later caused England.
 
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