You know what really grinds my sporting gears?

[Jono]

The big four, obv.

Thought its only existed for 4 years?

And yes, they earn money because of their fanbase. So what? How would you like them to earn it?

See, that's more deflection. The problem exists, and your point didn't deny the problem at all. You just said they've 'earned it'. Good on them, they earn a lot of money and it makes them powerhouse clubs and brands.

Doesn't make the league any less predictable compared to other premier sporting leagues around the globe.

 

[grecian]

It seems odd that France/Netherlands/Germany/Italy/Spain the thoery seems to be the player is built from the bottom up like a house:

8-12 - technical skills - feet
13-15 - physiological attributes - body
16-18 - teach them how to play - football brain

and don't consider needing players from other countries to help improve their own game, seems more like marketing spin of the top 4 to silence the critics.

England are nearly always a top team, but the little 1%'ers seem to build up and always cost them in big games.

Yes, your quite right, which is why I welcome the foreign influence in coaching and methods.

BTW the mid-table clubs in the Prem would hate a salary-cap, as it would mean that the League would stop being as popular and they'd lose most of their revenue.

Actually I do think there's many things wrong with the Prem, but no-one is putting forward any ideas that would make it better, IMHO. Salary caps are NOT the answer, I'm certain of that.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

No I don't. As usual, you're sprouting crap and mocking someone's post. I've made countless posts on the issue which POINT OUT THE PROBLEM. I've made many points about how other sports leagues are better superior they don't have such a **** situation.

I wasn't mocking you.

Let's hear your magical theory that would fix money's control of professional association football then. Seeing as though you've "pointed at other sports", I'll run through the things that I guess could apply:

Draft like the AFL or NBA? Wouldn't work, there's hundreds of professional teams in England alone. Do they all get picks? How does it work, do you draft out of school? Academies?

Salary cap? Could perhaps work, would ruin the Premier League as a product (hence won't be done unless Europe-wide) for the foreseeable future and a European-wide salary cap is insanely unworkable with the amount of different workplace and employment laws.

6+5 is an interesting theory in regards to this. All it'll do (IMO) is raise the money paid to local talent to insane levels, which does nothing.

It's all easy to point to the problem then point to sports in other countries that are run better money-wise, but it's not comparable. None of these sports anything near the worldwide appeal and coverage of Football, none of them have similar structures (ie. in theory, your weekend team could promote to the Premier League within a decade, they could win the FA Cup etc etc) with 5 tiers of fully professional fans with solid attendances and large turnover. I mean, every NRL club has less fans than what show up to Leeds games in the third tier of Football in England. How can you point to another sport and compare it's situation to football in the major countries of Europe?

There's a problem, yes. Solvable? Not likely.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

The big four, obv.
Have a look at before the Prem was in existance. The 80s, Liverpool, Everton, Arsenal.

Well, yes, but you didn't have a larger gap between 4th and 5th than between 5th and 18th.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

Netherlands

House without a back wall, yes.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

There's a problem, yes. Solvable? Not likely.

Could start by sharing out the UEFA money between the leagues that make up the CL, rather than the clubs that participate.

Might cause a breakaway league, admittedly.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

6+5 is an interesting theory in regards to this. All it'll do (IMO) is raise the money paid to local talent to insane levels, which does nothing.

However, this is spot on.

 

[Uppercut]

Ed Smith referenced a study into the effect of salary caps in his last book. They found that they make little or no impact on the relative success of each side. The best players still want to play for the best clubs. The most obvious example is the NY Yankees dominating baseball for years even with a salary cap.

Wish i could find the study, because it's really quite convincing. If people think English football has been dominated too much by four teams (United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Blackburn presumably) they'll need to find me a better solution.

 

[GIMH]

Thought its only existed for 4 years?

See, that's more deflection. The problem exists, and your point didn't deny the problem at all. You just said they've 'earned it'. Good on them, they earn a lot of money and it makes them powerhouse clubs and brands.

Doesn't make the league any less predictable compared to other premier sporting leagues around the globe.

The big four didn't finish as the top four until 05-06, possibly 03-04 as well now that I think about it. Before then Newcastle were there or thereabouts, they are now in the Championship. Everton recently cracked the top four and likely will again soon. Villa & Citeh highly possible soon. Leeds were up there at the turn of the century, they'll be playing us in August, third year in a row.

I guess I don't really see it as a problem. By and large teams stay near the top because of their traditions, which English football is built upon. Teams who break into the upper echelons purely through spending drop off in the end (Blackburn, Leeds & Newcastle all took a plunge after spending their way to relative terms of success), and even the true big three have all had long periods of inadequate performance (Liverpool not won a title for 20 years by the same the end of the season comes round, United went 26 years before. winning the Prem, Arsenal were a bit crap in the mid-90s, etc) and will do again.

 

[Jono]

I wasn't mocking you.

Let's hear your magical theory that would fix money's control of professional association football then. Seeing as though you've "pointed at other sports", I'll run through the things that I guess could apply:

Draft like the AFL or NBA? Wouldn't work, there's hundreds of professional teams in England alone. Do they all get picks? How does it work, do you draft out of school? Academies?

Salary cap? Could perhaps work, would ruin the Premier League as a product (hence won't be done unless Europe-wide) for the foreseeable future and a European-wide salary cap is insanely unworkable with the amount of different workplace and employment laws.

6+5 is an interesting theory in regards to this. All it'll do (IMO) is raise the money paid to local talent to insane levels, which does nothing.

It's all easy to point to the problem then point to sports in other countries that are run better money-wise, but it's not comparable. None of these sports anything near the worldwide appeal and coverage of Football, none of them have similar structures (ie. in theory, your weekend team could promote to the Premier League within a decade, they could win the FA Cup etc etc) with 5 tiers of fully professional fans with solid attendances and large turnover. I mean, every NRL club has less fans than what show up to Leeds games in the third tier of Football in England. How can you point to another sport and compare it's situation to football in the major countries of Europe?

There's a problem, yes. Solvable? Not likely.

Yes, your quite right, which is why I welcome the foreign influence in coaching and methods.

BTW the mid-table clubs in the Prem would hate a salary-cap, as it would mean that the League would stop being as popular and they'd lose most of their revenue.

Actually I do think there's many things wrong with the Prem, but no-one is putting forward any ideas that would make it better, IMHO. Salary caps are NOT the answer, I'm certain of that.

Tbf, I've never said the the Premier league should be the answer. What I have constantly put forward is, its not the best sporting league/system in the world, and will never be, because of this competitive problem.

For mine, GIMH deflects the issue and says it doesn't impact the success (as an enjoyable product, not as a money-making machine) of the league. That's ridiculous IMO, because every other major sporting league is less predictable.

Would anyone be confident at all at saying that in the next 5 years a team that isn't one of the big 4 will win the Championship? What about 10 years?

Regarding your points about a solution, I think before a solution is to be made the problem has to be acknowledged. The EPL (and many fans) have refused to do that. Increased grants to consistently mid-table teams are one possibility (which the league could clearly afford).

 

[Uppercut]

I wasn't mocking you.

Let's hear your magical theory that would fix money's control of professional association football then. Seeing as though you've "pointed at other sports", I'll run through the things that I guess could apply:

Draft like the AFL or NBA? Wouldn't work, there's hundreds of professional teams in England alone. Do they all get picks? How does it work, do you draft out of school? Academies?

Salary cap? Could perhaps work, would ruin the Premier League as a product (hence won't be done unless Europe-wide) for the foreseeable future and a European-wide salary cap is insanely unworkable with the amount of different workplace and employment laws.

6+5 is an interesting theory in regards to this. All it'll do (IMO) is raise the money paid to local talent to insane levels, which does nothing.

It's all easy to point to the problem then point to sports in other countries that are run better money-wise, but it's not comparable. None of these sports anything near the worldwide appeal and coverage of Football, none of them have similar structures (ie. in theory, your weekend team could promote to the Premier League within a decade, they could win the FA Cup etc etc) with 5 tiers of fully professional fans with solid attendances and large turnover. I mean, every NRL club has less fans than what show up to Leeds games in the third tier of Football in England. How can you point to another sport and compare it's situation to football in the major countries of Europe?

There's a problem, yes. Solvable? Not likely.

Great post, this.

 

[Jono]

If people think English football has been dominated too much by four teams (United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Blackburn presumably) they'll need to find me a better solution.

How is there a 'think' about it? It is a problem. The evidence is there.

Btw, the issue with that study (from the summary you have given) is it can be countered by various other leagues, such as the NBA, where smaller teams have had strong dynasties whilst the Nicks have sucked balls.

Secondly, that "want to play for better club" aspect will fade over time providing proper equalising policies exist.

AFL is another example, with 'traditional clubs' who players have always wanted to play for having not won a flag in almost a decade. The 'tradition and desire' to play for a traditional team isn't overridden by the opportunity of success.

 

[GIMH]

For mine, GIMH deflects the issue and says it doesn't impact the success (as an enjoyable product, not as a money-making machine) of the league. That's ridiculous IMO, because every other major sporting league is less predictable.

TBH I never said this, I hardly even watch the Prem, as it is pretty boring. However it would be hard to see a league where clubs were more randomly successful as legitimate.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

Increased grants to consistently mid-table teams are one possibility (which the league could clearly afford).

All that does is separate the middle pack from the rest of the 5 tiers of professional clubs. And unless they're giving these mid-table sides rich histories and millions of worldwide fans, nothing is going to happen. Most of the mid-table clubs in the Premier League are rich as balls anyway, the richest club in the world finished 10th in the Prem last season.

 

[grecian]

Could start by sharing out the UEFA money between the leagues that make up the CL, rather than the clubs that participate.

Might cause a breakaway league, admittedly.

Well a breakaway league would be a disaster. Also too much is made of the CL money, main clubs income come from being in the PL, which is funded by the top teams being massively marketable. All ways of weakening that means less money to the PL for ALL clubs.

It's a bit of a Catch22 thing TBH.

 

[Uppercut]

How is there a 'think' about it? It is a problem. The evidence is there.

Btw, the issue with that study (from the summary you have given) is it can be countered by various other leagues, such as the NBA, where smaller teams have had strong dynasties whilst the Nicks have sucked balls.

Secondly, that "want to play for better club" aspect will fade over time providing proper equalising policies exist.

AFL is another example, with 'traditional clubs' who players have always wanted to play for having not won a flag in almost a decade. The 'tradition and desire' to play for a traditional team isn't overridden by the opportunity of success.

The same is true in football though, without salary caps. Liverpool come to mind, haven't won a league title in almost 20 years and are one of the biggest, most well-supported clubs in the land. United went 27 years without winning the league up until 1993. Spurs, also a huge club, have won nothing in years. Maybe it'll surprise you to learn that Chelsea aren't an especially big club, having the ninth largest stadium in England (behind Sunderland and Newcastle). But they've won several titles this century. All without a salary cap, which was abolished in 1961.

In response to your opening question, the "think" is there because most people evidently don't consider it to be a problem. Hence it's the most popular league in the world.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

most people evidently don't consider it to be a problem. Hence it's the most popular league in the world.

Yup. It's easy to pick one of four, everyone's happy.

 

[Jono]

The same is true in football though, without salary caps. Liverpool come to mind, haven't won a league title in almost 20 years and are one of the biggest, most well-supported clubs in the land. United went 27 years without winning the league up until 1993. Spurs, also a huge club, have won nothing in years. Maybe it'll surprise you to learn that Chelsea aren't an especially big club, having the ninth largest stadium in England (behind Sunderland and Newcastle). But they've won several titles this century. All without a salary cap, which was abolished in 1961.

Be foolish to ignore the Champions League, and making it deep into the season.

Liverpool are still a big club outside of the UK because they continuously make it deep into the season, and have won/made CL finals.

In response to your opening question, the "think" is there because most people evidently don't consider it to be a problem. Hence it's the most popular league in the world.

No, they don't care that there is a problem, because the clubs they see, they support. The clubs they support, win.

Yup. It's easy to pick one of four, everyone's happy.

Haha yep, exactly.

Bet every time someone outside of the UK plays as a football video game, they go one of the major teams too. I try going Wigan but always get my ass whipped in PES by my friends

 

[GIMH]

Be foolish to ignore the Champions League, and making it deep into the season.

Liverpool are still a big club outside of the UK because they continuously make it deep into the season, and have won/made CL finals.

No, they don't care that there is a problem, because the clubs they see, they support. The clubs they support, win.

Haha yep, exactly.

Bet every time someone outside of the UK plays as a football video game, they go one of the major teams too. I try going Wigan but always get my ass whipped in PES by my friends

They were still massive when they won nothing under Souness, and in the crap years that Evans & Houllier were in charge.

 

[duffer]

As much as I'd love some form of salary cap in European football it really wouldn't fly. Maybe a few decades ago but not now.